Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

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pwzhangzz
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#41 Post by pwzhangzz »

Debian 12? Bookworm? Who cares! The important thing is, I am seeing a very smooth transition between Bullseye and Bookworm, and have been using it for almost a week now. Knock on wood!

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#42 Post by 4D696B65 »

Bullseye, sid, and bookworm were all pretty much the same a few weeks ago. Give it time to move forward and away from stable. :mrgreen:

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#43 Post by craigevil »

4D696B65 wrote: 2021-09-05 16:55 Bullseye, sid, and bookworm were all pretty much the same a few weeks ago. Give it time to move forward and away from stable. :mrgreen:
Oh there have already been hundreds of packages updated in Sid. :D
Including base-files that came with the name change.

cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid"
NAME="Debian GNU/Linux"

from neofetch: OS: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid aarch64
Raspberry PI 400 Distro: Raspberry Pi OS Base: Debian sid Kernel: 5.10.63-v8+ aarch64 DE: MATE Ram 4GB
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#44 Post by ooglaboogla »

Long read here... I run Debian Cinnamon, so some of this is particular to the Cinnamon DE. I wanted to do some testing this morning on this topic. I've been running Debian 11 Bullseye long before it was released in August as the new Stable Debian version, because I prefer the Testing branch. Now that Bullseye is stable, I have changed over to Bookworm. I also use the Sid and Experimental repos, but for this test, I didn't. I downloaded the weekly build of Debian from the Unofficial section, where you get non-free software for better hardware support. This was just updated on September 6th, and is titled "firmware-testing-amd64-DVD-1.iso" This weekly build will eventually be built on Bookworm, but for the moment it is still Bullseye. I installed this on bare metal because I didn't want to have to wonder about any issues being related to Virtualbox. After the install, I checked for updates. There were none available. I then opened the etc/apt/sources.list file and commented out the repos related to the installation media. This left me with the Bullseye main contrib non-free, Bullseye Security, and Bullseye-updates repos. The updates repo was commented out, so I changed that. I also commented out any Source repos that were active because I didn't need them. I then changed the word Bullseye to Bookworm in all instances in the file. After saving the file, I opened a terminal and typed sudo apt update. There were 618 updates available. I typed sudo apt upgrade, and the dialog indicated that 609 would be upgraded and 9 held back. If you see the held back warning, it's a good sign that you are about to break something, so I didn't proceed with the upgrade yet. I opened the Software&Updates app, which can also be accessed by double-clicking the sources.list file, or from Settings/Repositories in Synaptic Package Manager. It didn't look right. On the Debian Software tab, nothing was checked. On the Other Software tab, Debian 12 Testing Bookworm was shown. I checked the boxes on the Debian Software tab for main, contrib, and non-free software, then closed the program. I then restarted the PC and opened the app again. It now showed main, contrib, and non-free enabled on the Debian Software tab, and nothing at all in Other Software. This is what I wanted, which indicates that Bookworm has become the base repo. I opened the sources.list file to make sure, and it showed the 3 Bookworm repos as I wanted. I then ran the system upgrade, this time in Synaptic, but I assume it would have went the same in a terminal. It upgraded 618 packages and none were held back. Everything went just fine and the PC is now running the Debian 12 Testing branch. It doesn't yet call itself Debian 12. I don't know exactly when that will change. I'm guessing maybe some time in December. Doesn't really matter. Bookworm is the codename for Debian 12, so that's what I have. The Cinnamon System Info app identifies it as Debian GNU/Linux Testing Bookworm, which is accurate. Oddly, Neofetch and other utilities identify it for now as Bookworm/Sid, even though I haven't added Sid. I'm sure that will straighten itself out eventually. Still running Kernel 5.10.0-8 because no new Kernels have been added to Bookworm yet. (Or Sid, for that matter.) But if you want to run the Debian Kernel 5.13.0-trunk, it is available on the Experimental repo. I'll be adding the Sid and Experimental repos to the test install to get it rolling as I like. If anything goes wrong there, I'll post an update.

Update: No problem with adding Sid. Got 5 new packages and 143 updated packages. Cinnamon System Info now calls it Unstable Sid. Neofetch now calls it Bookworm/Sid. My favorite image viewer/editor Nomacs is only available in the Sid repo, so I installed that. Going to add Experimental next and upgrade to Kernel 5.13.

Update: So I added the Experimental repo. After doing this, no new updates are available, because nothing from this repo gets installed automatically. I opened Synaptic and scrolled to Sections/Kernel and Modules. There is actually a Kernel 5.14 available now, but it is unsigned, so I didn't mess with it. I highlighted the package linux-image-amd64, then from the Package menu, I selected Force Version. (This is how I use the Experimental repo.) In the box that opened, I selected the 5.13.12 Kernel package, which gives you Kernel 5.13.0-trunk. I then clicked Apply and installed the new kernel. 5.10 is still available from the advanced options in the Grub menu after doing this. But so far, I haven't had any issues with Kernel 5.13. If you want the latest Firefox, Thunderbird, Cinnamon, and many other apps, they're in the Experimental repo. I use the Force Version option for those as well. Keep in mind that if you disable the repo after installing something from it, you won't be able to get updates for apps that came from it. There's no need to disable it. Furthermore, those apps won't be updated automatically, either. You'll still have to check manually by using the Force Version option to see if there's a new release. (I'm sure there's probably a way to make the Experimental repo serve updates automatically, but I haven't looked into that yet.) Once again, happy testing.

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#45 Post by pwzhangzz »

Although Sid is labeled "unstable", as far as desktops go, it is actually more stable than Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. Especially when some desktop apps that are inherently unstable don't/can't get upgraded in the LTS version of Ubuntu.

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#46 Post by pwzhangzz »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-08-20 06:29 I saw 5.13.12 kernel in Experimental:

https://packages.debian.org/experimental/kernel/

If history is of any indication (it should), we should see 5.13 or even 5.14 in bookworm one of these days!
Has anyone ever upgraded to the 5.14 kernel?

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#47 Post by craigevil »

5.14 is in Experimental. It should be a simple apt install .
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#48 Post by wizard10000 »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-13 18:16Has anyone ever upgraded to the 5.14 kernel?
Running it on four machines plus one VM - no issues here.
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#49 Post by pwzhangzz »

wizard10000 wrote: 2021-09-14 12:13
pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-13 18:16Has anyone ever upgraded to the 5.14 kernel?
Running it on four machines plus one VM - no issues here.
Totally screwed up. Couldn't even boot back to the old kernel.

How did you do it?

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#50 Post by sunrat »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-15 06:08
wizard10000 wrote: 2021-09-14 12:13
pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-13 18:16Has anyone ever upgraded to the 5.14 kernel?
Running it on four machines plus one VM - no issues here.
Totally screwed up. Couldn't even boot back to the old kernel.

How did you do it?
So it lasted a week before you broke it. Can't say I'm surprised. It's a regular problem for people who always want the latest software no matter what. We call it SNS Syndrome (Shiny New Stuff). Debian Stable is extremely reliable because it is well tested and not always the latest. Development versions, Testing and Unstable, are more suited to experienced users who can fix it when it breaks.

So now you could backtrack and post exactly what you did before you broke it and maybe someone can see where you went wrong.
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Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#51 Post by pwzhangzz »

Actually migration from Bullseye to Debian 12 (bookworm/sid) was very smooth. We have migrated about 1/3 of our office machines to Debian 12. Looking great!

I had problem with the 5.14 kernel when I upgraded from Bullseye. Will try again from sid.

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#52 Post by pwzhangzz »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-15 07:30I had problem with the 5.14 kernel when I upgraded from Bullseye. Will try again from sid.
Stuck at boot screen . . .

"Loading Linux 5.14.0-trunk-amd64
Loading initial ramdisk . . ."

But this time, I was able to boot back into the 5.10.0.8 kernel. Removed all the 5.14 packages. Reboot.
Back to normal. Happy as a clam!

We have a test machine doing all the experiments. It's not like we upgrade all our machines to new stuff all at once. Always gradual. Test machine first. Then two, three . . . so far and so forth.

Of course, all the machines to be upgraded have been carefully backed up (multiple backups).

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#53 Post by pwzhangzz »

I saw the 5.14 kernel (unsigned) has been ushered into the sid repo, but don't have the guts to install it. At the present, apt upgrade does not install the 5.14 kernel.

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#54 Post by sunrat »

Why do you want to install a new kernel? Is something not working with the 5.10 kernel?
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#55 Post by pwzhangzz »

We have a couple of Ryzen 7 4700u laptops, the 5.10 kernel works great, but just thought bumping the kernel number to 5.14 may be able to squeeze out a little bit more juice. Especially wrt the amdgpu driver. Also, we are thinking about getting a Ryzen 5700 machine, the 5.14 kernel (or higher) may be needed?

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#56 Post by seeker5528 »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-21 06:32 I saw the 5.14 kernel (unsigned) has been ushered into the sid repo, but don't have the guts to install it. At the present, apt upgrade does not install the 5.14 kernel.
If your installed kernel is 5.10.0.8 this is normal behavior. From a packaging standpoint relative to 5.10.x the package for 5.14 is considered a new package, so it would not show as an upgrade to your installed package for the kernel and as a dependency of the kernel metapackages it would be considered a new dependency and packages with new dependencies do not get upgraded when you do apt upgrade.

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#57 Post by pwzhangzz »

Yesterday, "sudo apt update & apt list --upgradable" shows that the kernel will be upgraded to 5.14. So I did. Again, won't boot, stuck at the loading initram boot screen. This is an AMD Ryzen 4700u notebook with Vega iGPU. I think the problem is that the amdgpu firmware has not be properly upgraded.

I have changed the grub submenu so the machine will boot to the 5.10.8 kernel by default. Everything else seems to be working OK. Look forward to the amdgpu firmware upgrade.

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#58 Post by sunrat »

seeker5528 wrote: 2021-09-22 16:51... From a packaging standpoint relative to 5.10.x the package for 5.14 is considered a new package, so it would not show as an upgrade to your installed package for the kernel and as a dependency of the kernel metapackages it would be considered a new dependency and packages with new dependencies do not get upgraded when you do apt upgrade.
That's why one should do apt full-upgrade in unstable. It will replace or remove packages as well as installing new packages whereas apt upgrade will not. If you have the metapackage linux-image-amd64 new kernels will be then installed.
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Those who have lost data
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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#59 Post by pwzhangzz »

sunrat wrote: 2021-09-23 00:13 apt full-upgrade
Normally this would be correct. But not in the current situation. In one of the previous posts, I used apt full-upgrade, which caused the firmware to be recompiled to the new kernel. When the computer failed to boot into the 5.14 kernel, I was unable to boot back to the 5.10 kernel either, most likely because the firmware is now incompatible with the 5.10 kernel.

I have tried--and failed--to boot into the 5.14 kernel in three machines, two 4700u laptops and one 3700/RX580 desktop. With the "apt upgrade" command, I was able to boot back into the original (5.10) kernel when booting into 5.14 failed. With "apt full-upgrade" the whole system was frozen solid and I had to activate my back-up mechanism. But this really is no big deal. I am otherwise happy with Debian 12!

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Re: Look forward to Debian 12 "Bookworm"!

#60 Post by seeker5528 »

sunrat wrote: 2021-09-23 00:13 That's why one should do apt full-upgrade in unstable. It will replace or remove packages as well as installing new packages whereas apt upgrade will not. If you have the metapackage linux-image-amd64 new kernels will be then installed.
My brain hasn't fully made the transition to apt yet. I usually have apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade typed in before I think 'I should use apt WHATEVER' now.

Do upgrade first and then full upgrade, generally, and have apt-listbugs installed.
pwzhangzz wrote: 2021-09-23 02:30 Normally this would be correct. But not in the current situation. In one of the previous posts, I used apt full-upgrade, which caused the firmware to be recompiled to the new kernel. When the computer failed to boot into the 5.14 kernel, I was unable to boot back to the 5.10 kernel either, most likely because the firmware is now incompatible with the 5.10 kernel.
Installing the newer kernel should not affect the ability to boot with the older kernel.

Firmware updates are a whole different thing, they are not specific to a version of the kernel so problem firmware can be a problem for all your installed kernels. You could try updating the kernel and not the firmware.

That would be something you would want to start a new post about if it's something you want to try to troubleshoot.

When you see the grub boot menu you can hit the 'E' key to edit the selected entry. For video issues "nomodeset" is a common option to add for video related issues.

If you have AMD video hardware and update the AMD firmware and the kernel fails to boot after that, that would be a more definitive test. Could be other firmware that causes a problem, but the video stuff is always the first suspect.

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