Debian Buster is here

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beardedragon
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#41 Post by beardedragon »

L_V wrote:Can you show this:

Code: Select all

apt policy libxnvctrl0

Code: Select all

bob@Debian:~$ sudo apt policy libxnvctrl0
[sudo] password for bob: 
libxnvctrl0:
  Installed: 418.74-1
  Candidate: 418.74-1
  Version table:
 *** 418.74-1 100
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     418.56-1 500
        500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
Robert Collard, Madison, WI
Lenovo K450e Kernel: 4.19.0-5 NVIDIA 418.74
Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) XFCE-4.12.4
Rule #1 Back Up
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L_V
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#42 Post by L_V »

Then all is fine !
(you don't need "sudo" for apt policy)

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oswaldkelso
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#43 Post by oswaldkelso »

Today I installed Buster, just for a giggle I chose desktop and got Gnome, shock and you guessed it horror!

First thing I did was add ps_mem to my nice clean system. I thought a before and after check would be smart.

I was a bit worried when I downloaded the iso, but figured if must have like 5 DE's for it to be so large at 3.7GB. I was interested to see if I was missing anything and if so what.

I chose not to add the non-free Wi-Fi driver as I have a cable, but it may have caused it to hang gdm on boot, I switched to another console and ran startx... bingo a desktop eventually :-) Then I realise I'm logged in as root? I thought that wasn't possible?

Anyway I kill the session log out and re-login as user using startx. Fired up Firefox but no connection! weird as network setting said I'm connected. restart Firefox and I'm on line. I add ps_mem. It shows 713MB just for the desktop and without gdm :-) Of course not having started gdm I couldn't log out of it. Just cancel, reboot and shutdown.

I reboot hangs again at starting gnome display manager something called init mac failed while trying to load the non existing firmware blob. I switch to root and run systemctl restart gdm3. It hangs leaving me with no tty access. Hard reboot. Same error. log into tty2 and end up using startx. I start a Firefox and LibreOffice and before you know it I'm using 1.2GB of ram. No wonder it's like wading through treacle. One thing I did discover was this pc is a "shuttle XPC XS36V" and even though it only has an external display the system see's it as a laptop with a built in display. I set it to the larger external display and all is dandy. Not that it helped GDM3.

Ignoring the login issues.

The interface is like a poor mans version of fittstool with skippy-xd (which I have setup but don't use as it's to cumbersome). Essentially if you use a mouse. You get much better application switching with plain old tint2 as the mouse movement is minimal and instant. If your going to just use a keyboard for switching seriously why would you use gnome?

I liked the clock in the middle of the screen after it logged me out! I didn't like how it logged me out without asking but suspect this could be changed.

Launching applications from the all section is criminally slow compared to a decent menu. The type launcher ridiculously slow compared to most type driven launchers like dmenu or runner. The hot spot launcher supersonically slow compared to fittstool on this same machine without gnome. Now if you have gobs of ram maybe you won't notice but what the heck is going on in the background for the same actions to be so much slower. Is there something you can switch off? Composting etc

My I propose a name change from Gnome to Slowme (slow-me frigging down)

Then I though while I'm here I'll try the other Desktops. KDE and XFCE

I ran software updates and cache refresh froze. Nothing xkill didn't fix :-)

apt-get install xfce4 which offered me to switch from gdm3 the lightdm... I did

after a reboot I get lightdm \o/ select xfce and login I turnoff composting and get 405MB from ps_mem... much snappier useable even.

Rather weirdly icewm is seem as a meta package or so it seems adding xscreensaver?

down to 290MB with at least 80MB of cruft. Not quite the 62MB I get on my usual system with my nc10 and icewm but hey better than 1.2GB. Very usable and more importantly for me and my old hardware a quick desktop.

Comparing my usual desktop: with the most used applications.

Base:a wm (usually icewm or openbox), tint2, xdotool, fittstool, rox-filer, spacefm network: seamonkey, weechat, claws-mail, wicd-gtk, gftp graphics:geeqie, gimp, inkscape, blender editors:leafpad, adie, geany, libre-office multimedia:cplay, gogglesmm, mpv, transmission-gtk utils:lilytermm, thunar-bulkrename, arandr

Clearly if I needed a more streamlined desktop I could remove most of those applications and choose much lighter one's. So what the heck is going on with Gnome and what the heck is going on with Buster... I mean it's due to be stable....

I'm seriously not sure if gnome hates me or I hate it.. It's definitely getting better compared to the last time I tried it but just as well neither the two need meet :mrgreen:
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beardedragon
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#44 Post by beardedragon »

oswaldkelso wrote:Today I installed Buster, just for a giggle I chose desktop and got Gnome, shock and you guessed it horror!
I'm seriously not sure if gnome hates me or I hate it.. It's definitely getting better compared to the last time I tried it but just as well neither the two need meet :mrgreen:
Sorry I gutted your long post, Did not need to read it twice. I have not liked gnome or mate for a longtime, but, started out with it. I prefer Xfce. You have a lot of interesting points but there are reasons for your problems. For instance, getting logged out without being told is due to not taking care of your settings when you first started, there are always some settings that have to do with screen time and with a screen saver the problem is two fold. Actually for a starting new RC system it is fast enough. I imagine xfce is faster than gnome though. If you started with only one disk to install with you have a modest amount of software. If you have three or more then I can understand the bulk. Welcome to the world of Buster, it is a different breed of Debian for sure. I had a taste of it from my recent experience in Testing if you read any of the rest of this. Hope you like it though I cannot take credit for any of it. Stick around it should be fun.
Robert Collard, Madison, WI
Lenovo K450e Kernel: 4.19.0-5 NVIDIA 418.74
Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) XFCE-4.12.4
Rule #1 Back Up
Rule #2 Back Up Your Back Up

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None1975
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#45 Post by None1975 »

oswaldkelso wrote:Rather weirdly icewm is seem as a meta package or so it seems adding xscreensaver?
Yes, it is. Just look here and here.
OS: Debian 10.3 Buster / WM: xmonad
Debian Wiki | DontBreakDebian, My config files on github

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oswaldkelso
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#46 Post by oswaldkelso »

The Buster experience continued with other DE's

enlightenment: 300mb after playing with composition got in down to 263mb. Light, lots of bling but as seems usual with enlightenment unstable! Windows froze requiring a log out. That said it performance wise it was fine. 7/10

mate:388mb usable by my granny. Complained about my screen but loaded it anyway. 6/10

lxde:308mb it seemed to load a bit of gnome cruft and would no doubt be much lighter if I removed gnome... may test that. lovely simple DE that anyone could use. 8/10

budgie: 540mb very basic ootb but much more usable speed wise. 6/10

plasma:plasma really struggled to load the monitor. very slow to start like over a minute or two. First time I got a black screem and waited. Eventually an option to select a monitor appeared. I clicked the wrong one and got a perminent black screen. I opened a tty and went in to .local/share/kscreen and deleted the file in there. Rebooted and tried again this time I selected the correct monitor and eventually got a desktop. Very slow to load up but once loaded works not to bad.. ps_mem showing 455mb Goodness knows what a full KDE would be like but no on my pay scale. 7/10

openbox: 270mb wtf is all the cruft being dragged in. Worked fine but felt like Usain Bolt and with a ball and chain 9/10

Gnome lost the ability to start synaptic and gparted but plasma could

Uninstalled reformatted the drive and reinstalled with no desktop

apt installed xorg rox curl firefox tint2 icewm mousepad spacefm and a few bits. Runs fine nice and quick but did need and hour to setup. Not got fittstool built yet as it complains about missing glib2 I suspect I need some dev files that I don't know the name of. I know it builds and works because I built it when I had the full desktop. pebkac :-) Edit. fixed is installed some massive meta file by mistake so I guess it's still a pebkac!

icewm: 105mb! better but no cigar xorg is like 35mb of that as opposed to usually about 10 and xrandr show the infamous "laptop screen" so I suspect it may be an issue no matter what distro. Disabled the "laptop screen" with arandr damn I like that application. 9/10 edit rose to 120mb! wtf

All scoring imho and relate to the tested hardware and used Buster release only bla bla bla

Basically composting by default sucks and the installer should recommend a DE based on your hardware should you choose a desktop install.... anyway it's been an experience I may keep Buster on it to watch, along with exegnu (TDE) which absolutely flies as a full DE. Have fun and enjoy
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sickpig
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#47 Post by sickpig »

what a gem of a post, thanks for the different comparisons. much appreciated. m not sure about openbox memory consumption though, on my vanilla netinstall its under 160mb and thats with a bunch of crap like at-spi-2, gconf, dconf, upowered, cgmanager, gnome-keyring etc
oswaldkelso wrote:Basically composting by default sucks
aye
oswaldkelso wrote:and the installer should recommend a DE based on your hardware should you choose a desktop install
hahaha never gonna happen :lol:

But yes TDE absolutely rocks!!

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fred44nl
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#48 Post by fred44nl »

oswaldkelso wrote:The Buster experience continued with other DE's
interesting, well, for me anyway.
but how do I get icewm to work ??
did install it with apt install icewm
did nano /etc/X11/default-display-manager and changed gdm3 to icewm
did sudo dpkg-reconfigure icewm
did update-alternatives --config x-window-manager and selected icewm
rebooted in between each change, but no dice :)
Debian 10 - Buster on Compulab Fitlet2

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None1975
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#49 Post by None1975 »

fred44nl wrote:rebooted in between each change, but no dice :)
In login screen, you must choose icewm-session to have full experience with icewm.
OS: Debian 10.3 Buster / WM: xmonad
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Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#50 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

oswaldkelso wrote:Gnome lost the ability to start synaptic and gparted
Nope: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=699438#p699438

You probably tried the Wayland session, that won't allow synaptic to start because it runs in an insecure manner and the Wayland devs actually give a crap, amazingly.

Gparted works in both the X-based and Wayland GNOME session though, at least on my 10-year-old X201 (which runs GNOME very smoothly btw).
fred44nl wrote:did nano /etc/X11/default-display-manager and changed gdm3 to icewm
Icewm isn't a display manager so you should probably change that back.
fred44nl wrote:did update-alternatives --config x-window-manager and selected icewm
The x-window-manager alternative is only used if you have no x-session-manager alternative installed so that won't really do anything.

Select icewm-session from GDM's login screen by using the little cog-wheel icon just underneath the login box.
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Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support

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GarryRicketson
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#51 Post by GarryRicketson »

On mine it is not a "cog wheel", but a little wrench thing,
Image
=============
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2019-05-24 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#52 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

GarryRicketson wrote:On mine it is not a "cog wheel", but a little wrench thing
I think that's LightDM rather than GDM.

I've already advised Fred to switch from LightDM to GDM because the latter runs X as the normal user but LightDM runs X as root, which is bad.
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Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support

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GarryRicketson
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#53 Post by GarryRicketson »

Ok, any way, the option to select it should be there some where in the login screen,...
Mine is "lightdm".
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2019-05-24 15:48, edited 1 time in total.

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fred44nl
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#54 Post by fred44nl »

GarryRicketson wrote:Ok, any way, the option to select it should be there some where in the login screen,...
yes, it is and you know what ??
I found it :)
Debian 10 - Buster on Compulab Fitlet2

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GarryRicketson
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#55 Post by GarryRicketson »

Congratualtions :D

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Re: Debian Buster is here

#56 Post by Wheelerof4te »

fred44nl wrote:I found it
Small successes lead us to greater victories.
Soon, you will be compiling your own kernels....just to go back to default one anyway because it worked just fine :mrgreen:

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fred44nl
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#57 Post by fred44nl »

Wheelerof4te wrote: Soon, you will be compiling your own kernels....
never, ever, ever :)

but what is the catch in icewm ??
not much different from LXDE or LXqt.
well, it is all a matter of taste.

want something different ??
have a look at Cinnamon.

not exactly a lightweight, but niccceeeeeee :)
Debian 10 - Buster on Compulab Fitlet2

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None1975
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#58 Post by None1975 »

fred44nl wrote:but what is the catch in icewm ?? not much different from LXDE or LXqt.
Do you feel the difference between DE and WM?
OS: Debian 10.3 Buster / WM: xmonad
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Soul Singin'
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#59 Post by Soul Singin' »

None1975 wrote:
fred44nl wrote:but what is the catch in icewm ?? not much different from LXDE or LXqt.
Do you feel the difference between DE and WM?
Fred is correct in the sense that both LXDE and IceWM provide a simple workspace: menu, taskbar, launchers, pager, tray, ... and no whiz bang graphics. Windows open and close. That's it. Simple.

The difference between LXDE and IceWM is the difference between automation and customization. LXDE offers a good out-of-the-box experience and graphical tools (like LXAppearance) that cater to your preferences. It works well and I use it on my phonetop, but it always leaves me wanting something more.

I use IceWM on my laptop. IceWM looks terrible out of the box. To make it look nice, you have to edit a bunch of text files by hand. But because it is so simple and easy to edit IceWM's configuration files, it is very easy to create the desktop that you want in IceWM.

The IceWM project was recently revived and Debian Buster offers the new version. The improvements are subtle, but it feels like silk.

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beardedragon
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Re: Debian Buster is here

#60 Post by beardedragon »

WOW! This thing has gone in a new direction from what I, the OP, had in mind. Well. the good news is it is coming whether you guys want it or not. I just downloaded and installed "debian-buster-DI-rc2-amd64-DVD-1.iso" and it is improved. :lol:
Robert Collard, Madison, WI
Lenovo K450e Kernel: 4.19.0-5 NVIDIA 418.74
Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) XFCE-4.12.4
Rule #1 Back Up
Rule #2 Back Up Your Back Up

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