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Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

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saudiqbal
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Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#1 Post by saudiqbal »

Since the end of Windows is near, all those non TPM2 computer users need an operating system. I am also moving to Debian. I am also going to install Debian for other friends and family I know but many people does not know how to install OS every two years. It would be nice for Debian admins to consider a rolling release cycle which will keep all the computer up to date forever without upgrading or reinstalling every two years for non tech savvy users.

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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#2 Post by Marie SWE »

I left windows because they introduced rolling release on win10. Everything you customize is affected by a large roll-up...
it was possible to make Win10 privacy secure and stable as win7 and 8.1, but as soon as it came a big roll-up you had to do most of the things all over again..

There are many other distros to choose from if you want a rolling release, so choose one of them..
I love LTS versions everything stays as you made it after the install.. Debian is not two years, it's five :wink:
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#3 Post by steve_v »

You registered 2012, and you think you need to "install OS" every two years? :lol:
Presumably you, er, haven't actually been using Debian during all that time then?
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#4 Post by saudiqbal »

I use it on my VPS and I just switched to Debian on my PC.

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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#5 Post by cds60601 »

saudiqbal wrote: 2021-08-23 21:49 It would be nice for Debian admins to consider a rolling release cycle which will keep all the computer up to date forever without upgrading or reinstalling every two years for non tech savvy users.
Do you understand that a rolling release has the potential to do more damage than what your "non tech savvy users" are willing to deal with?
Some advice: don't offer to install Arch for them - you will soon enough not have any friends.

If you simply MUST do something like that, consider (for yourself as a test) running the Testing branch. Somewhat a rolling release, less likely to break then the unstable branch. Even then, it still may be a bit more than your frineds are willing to live with.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#6 Post by craigevil »

Debian, install once, update forever.
Unless the user messes something up, or the hardware dies, Debian should never need to be reinstalled.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#7 Post by Hallvor »

I remember back in the day when so many of the Ubuntu veterans left for Arch, once they had the skills for it. The idea was that with a rolling release, you'd never have to reinstall again.

I'd give them half a point, because dist-upgrades were (in my experience) horrible in Ubuntu, and a reinstall was often recommended.

The point they're not getting is that rolling release distros somehow are better in the long run. Whenever you change something, you add new possibilities of things going wrong. If you have the skills to fix these issues, fine. Setting up a new users with systems like that, is setting them up for failure.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#8 Post by rtra »

There are some Debian-based distros, like Siduction, that implement the rolling-release model by tracking just a little bit behind Debian sid.

Bust like others have told you, your premises are not correct.

You do not need to reinstall Debian.
Rolling release distros should only be used by technically-proficient users.


Happy linuxing!

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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#9 Post by canci »

Please just use a rolling release distro. There's tons of them out there, both for expert users (Arch) and more novice ones (Manjaro, opensuse Whateverthename).
Most of us here want Debian to remain the way it is.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#10 Post by Trihexagonal »

canci wrote: 2022-03-31 15:34 Please just use a rolling release distro. There's tons of them out there, both for expert users (Arch) and more novice ones (Manjaro, opensuse Whateverthename).
Don't forget Kali Linux.

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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#11 Post by canci »

Kali Linux is a penetration testing distro. I'd never suggest it for general use.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#12 Post by ticojohn »

I was using Debian and then tried Ubuntu, as I wanted a more up-to-date version of Kodi. The first Ubuntu upgrade trashed the system. I then installed Debian Testing, so as to have that version of Kodi. I've been on stable ever since and I will never go back to a rolling release distro. Just my two cents worth.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#13 Post by fch »

If you want debian rolling release try debian sid, but it will sacrifice stability and security. I also wanted something more fresh, I 've used manjaro and other distros, but I prefer debian because of its ethos and philosophy, with security and stability at focus.

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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#14 Post by canci »

Sid really isn't a good rolling release, as it gets packages later than Arch for example and bugs are sometimes left untouched because the new version is around the corner. Also, once Testing goes into freeze, Sid will sometimes be weeks or months without new packages. It's a development release and not a rolling release and I seriously wish people would stop calling it that -- just for the sake of not getting these lazy ass posts on this forum where people pretend this was an OS they paid for and they somehow deserve that someone fix a grave bug in Sid ASAP, or else.xD
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#15 Post by Trihexagonal »

canci wrote: 2022-03-31 17:17 Kali Linux is a penetration testing distro. I'd never suggest it for general use.

Duly noted as such and documented for anyone of the same opinion. One that will not be acknowledged after this so that it does not become a heated topic of conversation.

That's not what I'm here for and would rather not put people I've just met on ignore to prevent it.

FYI:
Kali Linux is a multi platform solution, accessible and freely available to information security professionals and hobbyists
https://www.kali.org/docs/introduction/press-release/

As a hobbyist, I have 4 laptops running FreeBSD and 4 running Kali GNU/Linux on metal. I posted a screenshot of both yesterday in the off-topic screenshot section.

If you're interested in seeing what either looks like when used on a daily basis as general use desktops by someone who knows how to Admin both.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#16 Post by canci »

Me disagreeing with you doesn't have to be a heated debate. After all, we're not on Twitter :)
I still hold that for most users, general use doesn't mean Kali Linux. And yes, I know that in the end, it's just a Linux distro so you could use Kali as such, but that's never the distro I'd suggest to most users. I think it's going to come preconfigured with a lot of tools and settings that most users won't need.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#17 Post by kedaha »

canci wrote: 2022-03-31 17:17 Kali Linux is a penetration testing distro. I'd never suggest it for general use.
Neither would I for the reason that I've never used it; I would however recommend FreeBSD—but not for general use—among other reasons for its excellent sound system now that oss4 has long been a dead duck in Debian even though an abandoned, long-forgotten and non-functional oss4 package has been left in unstable.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#18 Post by steve_v »

Trihexagonal wrote: 2022-03-31 16:54 Don't forget Kali Linux.

You can't roll without fuzzy dice or fuzz without Kali-Rolling..
A fine distro for it's intended purpose, but far too specialised to equate to a rolling-release version of debian IMO.

canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25for most users, general use doesn't mean Kali Linux.
Agreed.
canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25I think it's going to come preconfigured with a lot of tools and settings that most users won't need.
IME (though admittedly it's been a while), the bigger problem is that kali tends to hand-pick package versions from testing and/or unstable, then add their own patches on top.
If the user isn't properly familiar with debian package management, update-borkage is pretty much inevitable.

Trihexagonal wrote: 2022-04-02 01:22 Duly noted as such and documented for anyone of the same opinion. One that will not be acknowledged after this so that it does not become a heated topic of conversation.
Kali only becomes a heated topic when some skid gets sucked in by the 1337 h4x0r mystique or the sexy logo and tries to use it as a daily driver on their desktop, then discovers that the kali support channels expect them to know what they're doing already and comes over here. Doubly so when they're aware that we don't support kali, and try to hide the distro or insist that it's "just debian with some extra tools".

If you do know what you're doing and you're aware of the pitfalls, you're not going to wander in here asking for support for specialised derivatives to begin with. So long as you're not actively recommending kali to newbs and you keep discussion in offtopic where it belongs, there's no argument.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#19 Post by Trihexagonal »

canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25 Me disagreeing with you doesn't have to be a heated debate. After all, we're not on Twitter :)
No, but it inventively does.
canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25 I still hold that for most users, general use doesn't mean Kali Linux.
I'm not most users and have used Kali since it was BackTrack 5 and started using Debian as a base 11 years ago.
canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25 And yes, I know that in the end, it's just a Linux distro so you could use Kali as such, but that's never the distro I'd suggest to most users.
You are correct, Sir. It is a Debian box loaded with hacker tools. I have all my desktop programs available from the panel and rarely ever open up Xfce.

It's no different than some other disco with Xfce that comes loaded down with a bunch of programs the developers just know I can't live without if I'm going to have a pleasurable desktop experience and I never use. That's why I like Fluxbox.
canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25 I think it's going to come preconfigured with a lot of tools and settings that most users won't need.
You wouldn't recommend FreeBSD either would you? It doesn't come preconfigured with any 3rd party programs. Just the base system, a text editor and a terminal. You build it from ground up and compile the programs you choose to use from ports, or precompiled ports as pkg if you prefer.
kedaha wrote: 2022-04-02 10:09 Neither would I for the reason that I've never used it; I would however recommend FreeBSD—but not for general use
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Even tho0ugh it is based on conjecture and not first hand experience.

steve goes on ignore without so much as an explanation. Next time.
canci wrote: 2022-04-02 08:25 Me disagreeing with you doesn't have to be a heated debate. After all, we're not on Twitter :)
No, cancl, you were quite rational, reasonable and didn't base your argument on something you didn't know anything about. I made a counterpoint and it was fair debate between us.

I have 6 more laptops that I'll be posting screenshots of in the Off-Topic Non-Debian box thread, just so people who have no first hand experience with FreeBSD or Kali GNU/Linux Rolling can at least see what one looks like when used for everyday general desktop activities by someone can use them as such.
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Re: Debian should seriously consider rolling release version

#20 Post by canci »

I don't think that disagreements have to inevitably be heated. It depends on the person you discuss with.

You've replied to one of my posts where I was talking about what suggestion I would give to most users, so the point of what you individually have as some idiosyncratic need is totally moot. Most users are better off with a general purpose distro rather than a pen-testing distro. And most people we see in these forums probably fall into the category of script kiddies rather than people who genuinely need a pen-testing distro, so even then -- e.g. when you see someone really struggling with basic concept such as apt -- it probably does much more good than harm to tell someone to maybe start with a vanilla Debian install first rather than giving them ready-to-go tools with which they can hack someone's machine.

I really wouldn't suggest FreeBSD to beginners unless I know they have computers as a hobby and can value the fact that a little time spent on your computer can give you so much. Also, FreeBSD will have an extra challenge when it comes to hardware support that isn't there on Linux. Additionally, I also know a lot of people who like tinkering with computers, but just don't have the time to start with something as involving as FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Arch. They want to get their feet wet with something more out of the box first. They can always continue with something more hands-on once they are ready.

In my almost 20 years of using GNU/Linux tools I've learned that telling beginners, who in most cases just want a functioning appliance that does 3-5 tasks, that putting in more effort in order to learn the better tool, mostly won't pay off. My mum writes 5 letters a year, so I don't think that telling her that LaTeX is much better than LibreOffice makes any sense. LibreOffice runs well on her ancient laptop. We gain nothing from making her spend 10 weekends of her valuable time in her late 60s in order to learn all that. IT is not her hobby. OTOH, teaching her to do updates and leave uBlock Origin on, made a tremendous difference in how safe her machine is in the long run.
tl;dr -- Choose your battles, I guess.
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