mardybear wrote:Sorry if i offended you.
Offended me? No, come on, did I say that?
No, we're cool my friend, I never felt disrespected or anything, I hope the same it true for you.
Actually I have had you in my good book for a long time and it is mostly because of this that I was surprised you missed those things.
mardybear wrote:You're a scrapper. I like that but you really shouldn't tell people what they have/not read.
I understand how it may have come across the wrong way and I'm sorry for it.
The reason why I emphasized you needed to read it, is because you missed (at least that's how I perceived it, but I think confuseling too did) the point of that thread, of its title and why I don't mean that "people should love metapackages".
When you said I should have removed the link from my signature, you made me think that, beside not having read the next two lines, you were focusing on the literary meaning of the title, and not on the content of the guide, which is simply aimed at teaching users how to deal with metapackages.
By the way, in this thread where it seems like one can only love or hate something...I don't love or hate metapackages (just like I don't hate or love systemd).
The systemd argument will remain bipolar as it's a fundamental shift in the operations of Linuxland, not some trivial new software. It will pretty much make it impossible to run Debian without systemd libraries Jessie forward, as you should know based on the many previous posts on this exact subject.
I agree it'll always divide opinions, but can you honestly say you don't believe I'm not partial after all I've said and will say?
But yes, I understand the concern about system making it impossible to run a system without some libraries.
The reason why I think it is over exaggerated is that in my particular point of view, as long as the libraries do not do harm (which is often implied but untrue) and as long as all things systemd can remain inactive allowing one to run sysvinit or any other init (as it is currently possible, am I wrong on this?), I don't see a huge problem, from a philosophical standpoint.
Sure, technically it may be annoying, a redundancy to have inactive unused libs (although, honestly, how much space we're talking about here?) and inelegant, but practically, until it will be mandatory
to run systemd, and not just to have a few interfacing libs, I can't accept the "there's no choice" and "the world is going to crap" arguments.
I can and do take seriously the concerns about possible future development that could force
users to run only
systemd, and that scares me because even though I don't really care for me, I am a freedom supporter first and I wouldn't agree with that for one second.
But right now I don't see any violation and as a user I have no reason to distrust Debian or even systemd.
Maybe naively, I trust in the good faith of those who do the development and in the fact that especially those who oppose systemd can look at the code for shenanigans. In fact I believe that in the context of free software people will fork stuff before a totalitarian turn of events.
If I'm gonna be a fool on this so be it, I will regret not seeing it coming and pull up my sleeves to help fixing the mess.
But right now, nobody can back up with facts and serious reasoning any such outcome and I think it is fair to ask to stick to what's real and be objective and rational about it.
mardybear wrote:I've been an adult for a long time and would never use the language you just utilized.
What language did I use?
I am not one who refrains from the occasional "bad word", on this board there is a fair tolerance for a moderate amount of foul mouth expression and I have never received a message from either the staff or regular users about me abusing this freedom (actually if anything, the opposite).
Besides, what I'm referring to is not the language in itself, but the attitude behind the language.
I have called out such users, or better yet I have called out the typology of users. Indeed I care about the final language only to a certain extent, like for instance writing Microshit or Micro$oft doesn't make any difference in my book, it is just as foolish.
So yes, I have definitely took my liberties and I have been harsh with them, deservedly so, but I ask you to tell me where and when I have been on the same level, if that is what you meant.
Anyway, what's the point of you saying you don't do it?
Even if I was accusing you directly, which I'm not, would proving that you don't do it
make the issue vanish?
Does a multitude, the majority indeed, of anti-systemd detractors resort to childish, nonproductive behavior?
Can we agree it is a bad thing?
mardybear wrote:You are correct about the rants and childish behaviours. It will die down as detractors migrate away.
No, it won't.
Detractors are both those who are constructive and those who are not. But even if you meant fanatic detractors as opposed to legitimate detractors, the latter will get lost among the former and the whole anti-systemd crowd will easily end up being remembered for the antics and the fud instead of the serious, legitimate and competent claims of those who know what they are complaining about.
I wonder how much did dasein weigh this issue in when he wrote the revisionist essay. I fear not enough.
The last to migrate (if they ever will) will be the ones who chant Poettering's name or speak of the Redhat apocalypse, not the competent ones who I bet feel frustrated and disheartened by having to fight this battle with such counterproductive co-supporters.
If I were just a little bit more capable of understanding the technical aspects of the issue...
You've claimed ignorance for some time. With all your Debian experience, running testing for years, you are still not capable of making a judgement or understanding the technical merits?
No, I'm not.
And thank you for asking directly
so I can also respond to buntunub
who could have done the same.
First of all, I may be naturally inclined to understate the extent of my expertise in general (quite a few of my closest friends and acquaintances have told me that) which often makes me disqualify myself from "jury duties" on account of being not competent enough. I still believe that my standard is not too high and that everybody else's is waaay too low, but hey, you gotta go with a median right?
In this case however, I don't think I'm understating my true competence and knowledge and I don't think it is a big sin since I never argued technical stuff.
If you are at least as competent as me, you know that running Testing/Unstable for more than a decade at best
accounts for being careful in reading apt-listbugs when upgrading.
I may know a few things here and there, but ultimately I'm just an average user who, by the way, in the last five years or so has gradually lost most of his "sex drive" towards becoming more knowledgeable about computer related stuff (this means motivation to go the extra mile are far lower than they once were).
When I say I don't have the necessary understanding, and I also imply that the vast majority of those who claim they do also don't, I refer to the fact that for me truly understanding the issue means being close to a programmer, not to a user who runs scripts and loads/unloads services.
Most of the claims, the serious ones, against systemd are very technical and only people who can look at the code can say they have at least a basic skillset to make an informed evaluation. Sometimes even that may not be enough.
The rest of people simply judges based on guts, hearsay or on the trust (which can on occasions be ok) they have on other people they think know better.
This sadly, is true for everything, run your mind through how most people form opinions.
In this situation, I could make my mind and become a systemd supporter or detractor simply based on what someone who I think is knowledgeable enough thinks, but I can't do it for two reasons: it is hard for me to decide this way without even personally knowing my trusted people, and anyway the ones I know and somewhat trust are divided as well.
Also, there is the divide within Debian. If they are so divided, then it can't be any easier for me to just pick a side.
I went with systemd simply because it was the most convenient option for me.
As a Gnome user, who happens to be very comfortable with the new desktop paradigm despite how much some of you despise it (and I don't think
you are old farts for not liking the shell), accepting systemd was not a problem, considering I didn't have any prejudice.
I always wondered if I didn't like the shell and I would have moved to xfce (I think that's where I would have moved from gnome 2.x), I would have most likely stayed with sysvinit, but remained neutral just the same.
Now, I certainly am guilty of not making any effort to understand more of the technical side of it, so there you have it buntunub, you nailed me.
I'll tell you more, I don't think I'll ever fancy studying to understand it.
But have I ever discussed technical matters
Have I ever said anything, positive or negative about technical aspects of systemd or sysvinit?
The only things I have said concern the need to have people discussing it seriously, without childish attitudes and other non constructive behaviors.
This can be said about pretty much any issue.
Also, I may have spent a few words about some "philosophical" aspects like freedom of choice and software freedom in general, but those subjects hardly require much technical knowledge of this issue and, anyway, I have never gone too far if some knowledge was required.
I challenge you to find something I wrote in the past that contradicts what I just said.
Also, I would like you to argue about how my honest position is not desirable instead of that of most, who claim to have the knowledge, when it is statistically difficult to believe that in such a technical issue an overwhelming majority understands enough to make an informed decision while I'm the only one who confesses not to be up to the task.
mardybear wrote:You just read PAP's experience and there are currently at least two other active threads from long time Debian users reluctantly leaving. Do some research and decide for yourself.
I think you read enough of my posts and by now you should have noticed how I tend to speak of general cases and make analogies to depict potential scenarios.
Anecdotal evidence will always be just that.
Users have been leaving and embracing distros long before systemd came along.
Now you are noticing those who do so because of it, but this is a very easy to detect cognitive bias (systemd is the big headline), don't get fooled by it.
Sure systemd made its victims, but then again, people come and go all the time and systemd is just in the mix with much more stuff.
mardybear wrote:The other day there was a new Jessie user who did not yet install wireless firmware. He had to gut /var because the partition filled. By the time he rebooted and installed the firmware, the system reportedly generated something like 50MB of repetitive logs within a few seconds. There are many other Jessie stories on this forum. Of course, you could argue every new release has issues.
Quick research indicates traditional init is based on ~75 files and ~15,000 lines of code vs systemd's >900 files and >125,000 lines. Traditional init has been around and debugged forever and rarely causes problems. systemd is still in active development and is now being used by Debian, once regarded as the most conservative and stable Linux distribution around. Which init system will likely be more problematic? That's just the tip of the iceberg for technical arguments.
Honestly I don't care discussing about technical points like this one,as I said, I don't have the knowledge to do so.
I do care about reading
people talk about technical stuff however, but rationally and objectively, and if every other post I have to go through the rants and the antics, it makes my indirect informing less enjoyable and less productive.
mardybear wrote:Most of the exerienced users on this forum have left in the last few months. I suspect it's much more than paranoia or an unwillingness to change.
No, most of them have left a long time ago, slowly bleeding out from this community.
As I said before some have certainly felt like systemd was the last straw, but to say that most
have left in the last few months is wrong and unfair.
Wow, you made it this far, kudos!