The future with Systemd

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sjukfan
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Re: The future with Systemd

#106 Post by sjukfan »

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTc4MjQ
This summer a student developer began work on DBus daemons that accept systemd calls and emulated their behavior with their own native calls, in order to make drop-in replacements for BSD platforms where systemd is not supported and the upstream systemd developers have no plans of supporting.

This work revolved around writing effective BSD-compatible replacements for systemd-hostnamed, systemd-localed, systemd-timedated, and systemd-logind. While this work was spawned in the systemd camp, it's designed to run on Unix-like systems where systemd isn't supported (everything but Linux) in order to support the increasing number of end-user software packages depending upon systemd functionality, like GNOME. This Google Summer of Code work was done by student developer Ian Sutton with oversight from mentors Antoine Jacoutot and Landry Breuil.

While it's not clear right now how far these systemd utility replacements made it along, the code as of the end of the summer is hosted via the Google Melange site within the code sample section (unfortunately am not able to find any other blog posts or Git repositories for the work; will update if I receive any additional information). Hopefully this work will be picked up and continued by others not wishing to use/support systemd but still looking for compatibility with other systemd-dependent software.
Fear not - the layer is designed to be simple to port to other systems. Once it gains more functionality I'm sure a Linux port will be created.
tl;dr OpenBSD compatibility layer to support systemd calls.
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keithpeter
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Re: The future with Systemd

#107 Post by keithpeter »

sjukfan wrote:tl;dr OpenBSD compatibility layer to support systemd calls.
Nice find, thanks.

The *BSD side of the fence have to do *something* if they want a fully integrated desktop of the kind people have come to expect. I don't think a window manager on top of X with command line mounting/unmounting of drives is going to cut it. Not to mention wifi without network-manager. See sig for the gory details.

This strategy is a lot easier than (say) a total fork of one of the larger DEs like KDE with a new back end. Binary compatibility implies that what they come up with might be importable to the Linux yurt camp.

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edbarx
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Re: The future with Systemd

#108 Post by edbarx »

The good news is that there are various strategies to attack the problem. This shows that various solutions will crop up and the best one will prevail.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
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mardybear
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Re: The future with Systemd

#109 Post by mardybear »

Most open-source operating systems which are strictly opposed to adopting systemd are not Linux distributions, but rather flavours of BSD. The systemd project intentionally targets Linux exclusively and this makes it highly unlikely systemd will be ported to FreeBSD, PC-BSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD. In fact, the OpenBSD Foundation began work on software which will allow the operating system to avoid running systemd, but will enable OpenBSD to run applications which depend on systemd. However, since the original poster mentioned running the Debian distribution, I have a potential solution that might avoid any big changes. The Debian project maintains an official port that marries the FreeBSD kernel with GNU libraries and Debian's package manager. I have run this branch of Debian in the past in test environments and if you can get it running on your hardware it will offer the Debian experience as far as the installer and package managing are concerned and the kFreeBSD port of Debian is unlikely to adopt systemd.
From distrowatch:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20140908#qa

Debian GNU/kFreeBSD link:
http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

My weekend freetime was spent using freeBSD - really not that much different from Debian.
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keithpeter
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Re: The future with Systemd

#110 Post by keithpeter »

mardybear wrote:My weekend freetime was spent using freeBSD - really not that much different from Debian.
Oddly enough, just trying OpenBSD on my test laptop. OpenBSD has suspend that works on my hardware. Same language, different dialect. Very educational.

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mardybear
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Re: The future with Systemd

#111 Post by mardybear »

Same language, different dialect. Very educational.
Exactly but i couldn't word it as eloquently :) Feels the same but different...all at the same time. Some Linux commands work the same in BSD, some not. Very good experience. Glad i'm not yet too Linux-set-in-my-ways to keep exploring.

PS. Sorry about the rant way earlier in this thread somewhere. Yes i understand the free software concept, my frustration was directed towards Debian's management of the systemd situation. From my relatively brief experience, Debian has always been about providing choices. For example, if a new desktop environment becomes available it's added to the repository and does not displace another DE. When 64-bit systems came along, 32-bit systems were still supported. So when another init system became available (systemd), i would expect Debian to add this as an option, offering both sysinitv and systemd variants along with 32-bit and 64-bit. Especially since the move to systemd is so controversial and it has not yet proven itself to be a significant improvement or long term stable. Anyway...wasted enough time on it...just wanted to explain. Thanks.
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keithpeter
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Re: The future with Systemd

#112 Post by keithpeter »

mardybear wrote:PS. Sorry about the rant way earlier in this thread somewhere. Yes i understand the free software concept, my frustration was directed towards Debian's management of the systemd situation.
Rant? What rant? If you want rants, try the Debian-devel or Debian-user mailing lists! Plenty there :lol:

I thought 'mor' gave the best answer to that post as mor often does. My concern is the language being used and the way that makes it harder to focus on the technical issues (modularity, attack surface for exploits, difficulty or ease for upstream projects to remain init-agnostic &c, mudballing of subsystems - not just systemd by any means on that one).

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Re: The future with Systemd

#113 Post by timbgo »

keithpeter wrote:
mardybear wrote:PS. Sorry about the rant way earlier in this thread somewhere. Yes i understand the free software concept, my frustration was directed towards Debian's management of the systemd situation.
Rant? What rant? If you want rants, try the Debian-devel or Debian-user mailing lists! Plenty there :lol:
No, those are cries for reason, not rants, as far as the majority of those who want to, say, as the title says:
Re: upgrades must not change the installed init system [was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00308.html
I thought 'mor' gave the best answer to that post as mor often does.
No. Technically speaking, yes those are GNU. But in reality, no.
My concern is the language being used and the way that makes it harder to focus on the technical issues (modularity, attack surface for exploits, difficulty or ease for upstream projects to remain init-agnostic &c, mudballing of subsystems - not just systemd by any means on that one).
The musl dev's Rich Felker's concerns. Let's wait for anyone to plausibly rebuff those. Will be: never.
But I'm late to (try to) write on these topics, because I have fallen depressed. I'm not joking. This line:

Code: Select all

Built-in support for GnuTLS, GTK+ 3, ImageMagick, SELinux, and Libxml2.
on Richard Stallman's Emacs site:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
(take notice of the SELinux there) is what ended my trust in Richard.
I saw that line thanks to the discussion on:
Julian Assange: Debian Is Owned By The NSA
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04 ... ment-33217
where you can read that and even about suspicion, legitimate, as far as I get it, on GNU Hurd.
I won't call this OS that I put my hopes in, from now on GNU/Linux anymore. I'll try and call it SchLinux, by the Schmoogle the NSA's best friend Google that our dear leader Torvalds is so cheerfully hobnobbing with.

I have to recover from my broken dreams.
I would like not to belive that RMS would support SELinux, but it's there.

And who can deny that "Google and Red Hat pay his travel expenses" from:
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04 ... ment-33251
IgnorantGuru wrote:Last I spoke with RMS, he was still deeply in love with GNOME and Red Hat, even though I clearly explained the GNOME3 fiasco – I get the impression he’s a fraud (and coming from MIT, that’s easy to believe – Recruitment University).
But no! IgnorantGuru, thanks for your efforts, if you'll ever (later, you've been taking a break for some months now) be reading this. He was not a fraud. He started honestly!
The whole GNU is merely there to ‘stall’ evolution of free tools – I’m sure they get a laugh out of his name. I wouldn’t look for help there – Google and Red Hat pay his travel expenses.
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
Anyone can dismiss these: kernel hooks for rootkits
linux capabilities for intrusion?

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sjukfan
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Re: The future with Systemd

#114 Post by sjukfan »

uselessd, a fork of systemd 208.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
uselessd -- what it says on the tin, plus a complementary kitchen sink and flat tire
So, what is it?

uselessd (the useless daemon, or the daemon that uses less... depending on your viewpoint) is a project which aims to reduce systemd to a base initd, process supervisor and transactional dependency system, while minimizing intrusiveness and isolationism. Basically, it’s systemd with the superfluous stuff cut out, a (relatively) coherent idea of what it wants to be, support for non-glibc platforms and an approach that aims to minimize complicated design.
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golinux
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Re: The future with Systemd

#115 Post by golinux »

Excellent analysis of the systemd affair from the debian-user list. I'm having a hard time keeping up with the number of systemd-related posts. This is a good thing. The rebellion is growing . . .
May the FORK be with you!

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edbarx
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Re: The future with Systemd

#116 Post by edbarx »

I contacted the uselessd team to ask them whether they accept help from me in the fork. They said they use IRC. Does anyone know what I should install to have an IRC client up and running? If the interface is a TUI it has to support bigger than normal fonts. My eyesight is starting to control me.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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golinux
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Re: The future with Systemd

#117 Post by golinux »

edbarx wrote:I contacted the uselessd team to ask them whether they accept help from me in the fork. They said they use IRC. Does anyone know what I should install to have an IRC client up and running? If the interface is a TUI it has to support bigger than normal fonts. My eyesight is starting to control me.
I have only been on IRC a few times using xchat. I checked the preferences and there is a font setting.
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Hallvor
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Re: The future with Systemd

#118 Post by Hallvor »

edbarx wrote:I contacted the uselessd team to ask them whether they accept help from me in the fork. They said they use IRC. Does anyone know what I should install to have an IRC client up and running? If the interface is a TUI it has to support bigger than normal fonts. My eyesight is starting to control me.
I have been on IRC since the mid 90s. There are many clients to choose from. In addition to the ones mentioned in the text, you can also set up IRC in Pidgin. I think most clients have options to enlarge fonts.
http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20090 ... 7/IRC.html

Make sure you try to join the channel on the correct network, since you can't necessarily see channels and users from other networks: http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/
Most Debian channels are on the OFTC network. https://wiki.debian.org/IRC
After you have connected to a network, type /join #debian
or whatever the channel name is. type /list
to list all channels on the network.
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koanhead
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Re: The future with Systemd

#119 Post by koanhead »

I'm currently using Pidgin, and there's no way within the application to specify display fonts. On the Pidgin website there's this: https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/Using% ... roundcolor

I have tested this method (in Testing, no DE) and it works.

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buntunub
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Re: The future with Systemd

#120 Post by buntunub »

Just watched this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWux-PA6JCU

The really interesting part starts at time 35, where Poetering discusses all the reasons for why Debian should NOT use Systemd. That's right! Poetering actually spelled out all the reasons why Systemd should NOT be default in Debian TO the Debian DDs at the Debconf. He actually does a really good job of that too by directly addressing the prime concerns anyone in Debian should have issues with, such as rapid development pace, incompatibility with SysV (5% at that time and growing), only works on Linux and will NOT work on BSD, and last but certainly not the least, they "make decisions" on their own on the direction Systemd will go. While this sounds innocuous enough, we are talking about a major monolithic init system here. Any decision they make will have dramatic impacts on Debian.

Lots of salesmanship going on there. Looks like it worked for Poetering. I do find the ideas behind Systemd to be interesting. As an init system, and only as a basic init system, it could be an interesting alternative to SysV. However, there is not one thing that I heard from that presentation that gives a compelling reason to break from SysV. Did I miss something?

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edbarx
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Re: The future with Systemd

#121 Post by edbarx »

It looks like a wind of change is starting to blow. The fact that Poettering himself is telling Debian should not use systemd is something to be appreciated. If Debian really wants to remain universal in the true and complete sense of the word, it needs to continue with its tradition of allowing the greatest set of packages to be installed. This includes the widest possible number of Desktops and Window Managers together with CLI programs.

Evidently, our presumptuous attitude towards the casting vote decision that hugged systemd, is starting to germinate. Let us hope it grows into a big beautiful tree.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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mor
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Re: The future with Systemd

#122 Post by mor »

Help me understand one thing.

I get that systemd by being so monolithic and the dependency of so many packages, becomes basically unavoidable. So far so good.
I get that when this happens a user is basically deprived from the chance to choose solutions that do not make use of systemd, because when even something like Gimp requires it, it becomes hard to live systemd-free.

What I don't get is what would you expect Debian should do to address this issue.
How is Debian responsible for this situation?

What I mean is that if all free-software starts being dependent on systemd, what should Debian do? Dump all that depends on systemd?
As far as I know Debian is a distribution, how can it distribute the Gnome desktop without systemd?
Should Debian reinvent Gnome or dispose of it?

Or is it really just the fact that systemd is chosen as default?
If that is the issue, then I don't get how by it not being default, the chance of being able to use non systemd dependent software is any different.

If so many packages are becoming dependent on systemd, it is out of Debian's control isn't it?

This I don't get.

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Re: The future with Systemd

#123 Post by saulgoode »

mor wrote:I get that systemd by being so monolithic and the dependency of so many packages, becomes basically unavoidable. So far so good.
I get that when this happens a user is basically deprived from the chance to choose solutions that do not make use of systemd, because when even something like Gimp requires it, it becomes hard to live systemd-free.
I would clarify that GIMP does not require systemd. GIMP uses DBus (which has apparently been subsumed by the systemd project), if it is available, for one very simple task: if you invoke GIMP from the command line with a filename and an instance of GIMP is already running, a DBus message will be sent to open that file within the already running GIMP (if DBus is not available, a new instance of GIMP will be started). On platforms that don't have DBus available (e.g., Windows), a dedicated auxiliary command, gimp-remote, is typically provided to handle such operations.

I also saw mentioned on one of the Debian mailing list that GEGL (which GIMP does require) is dependent upon libSDL (which is allegedly dependent upon systemd). GEGL will make some libSDL features available if libSDL is installed, but it is not a requirement that libSDL be installed. The situation is the same for libJPEG (except libJPEG hasn't been caught up in the systemd einschluss :) ) -- if it is not available then you can't load and save JPEG files, but GEGL does not require that libJPEG be available.
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mor
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Re: The future with Systemd

#124 Post by mor »

Thanks for the clarification, very instructive.
Admittedly I only mentioned Gimp from hearsay and wasn't really sure about it.

I suppose though that my point would work just the same with pretty much any other systemd dependent piece of software as an example in the place of Gimp.

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Re: The future with Systemd

#125 Post by keithpeter »

mor wrote:I suppose though that my point would work just the same with pretty much any other systemd dependent piece of software as an example in the place of Gimp.
I'm finding (see link in sig) that few desktop applications *directly* depend on systemd (apt-get install foo --no-install-recommends is your friend). They often pull in libraries that are designed to provide interfaces to systemd related services (e.g. logind) or to dbus. Building a graphical UI that does *not* depend on any of these things (window manager on top of X) is fun and instructive but will always be a fairly niche passtime.

Debian is providing "materials" that enable people to run servers based on a choice of init systems and avoiding the mudball. That choice is appreciated and may result in additional take-up. Remember folks that gnulinux desktops are rare, but *linux* is everywhere (from my Netgear router through Google's search and servers, past my ISPs gateways, dns and web servers, through to e.g. CERNs HPC clusters).

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