Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

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Wheelerof4te
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Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#1 Post by Wheelerof4te »

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/ ... 41971.html
Debian's systemd maintainer decided he had enough of upstream's BS.

Upstream bug report below:
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/11436
Not even Pottering is sure what is going on:
Not sure what the right approach here is
But it seems udev's rule broke the custom naming.
I hope everything ends well, we don't need more systemd controversy now that Buster's full freeze is near.

EDIT: While this may seem too abrupt, we know systemd is a dynamic mess that keeps changing rules. I can only guess how many times Michael had to jump through the hoops just to keep compatibility over different archs and use-cases in Debian. This might be the straw that broke the camels back, as people are already noticing.

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golinux
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#2 Post by golinux »

We knew it was inevitable so no surprise. Let's just be done with it and return to sanity. I heard that Devuan has been trending heavily on social media since the bugs of a few days ago. I predict that will continue.
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llivv
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#3 Post by llivv »

is it just me or does anyone else believe m$ would love to butcher linux
and run win11 on top of systemd, following apples lead.
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Wheelerof4te
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#4 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Or someone should tell Pottering to stop breaking something every new release. Maybe he could ask Linus about his #1 rule, and apply it to his unfortunate project.

We know what happens to the guy who commits a breaking change to the Linux kernel. He gets schooled by Linus personally.

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golinux
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#5 Post by golinux »

May the FORK be with you!

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bw123
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#6 Post by bw123 »

Change is usually hard to deal with, but it's usually a good thing. If a debian maintainer just dumps the upstream pkg into the repo with some fluff, then wtf does debian need a maintainer for? I agree with the comment on the bug report by the maintainer, there's no point reporting bugs upstream. The maintainer should "fix the bug" and stop this debian nonsense policy of kissing upstream's rear-end and begging for fixes, instead of implementing them in the distro. The whole point of open-source is to take it and make it your own, and adapt it. It makes the software better for everyone in the long run. If all the maintainer does is follow upstream, then WTF?

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HuangLao
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#7 Post by HuangLao »

Because when you do that you create distro specific bugs/security holes that upstream is not aware of nor can they issue a fix/patch. Remember the Debian SSL fiasco? If not, here you go:
https://research.swtch.com/openssl
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/2 ... _hangover/

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bw123
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#8 Post by bw123 »

HuangLao wrote:Because when you do that you create distro specific bugs/security holes that upstream is not aware of nor can they issue a fix/patch. Remember the Debian SSL fiasco? If not, here you go:
https://research.swtch.com/openssl
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/2 ... _hangover/
That's BS, debian implementing a feature or fix or deviation and upstream not being aware of it sounds like a myth. Yeah I'm too young to rememeber 2008, and I'm aware of a lot of fiascos, but mistakes happen, it's how people learn. Maintainers should not be afraid of upstream. The point is, mbiebl is talented, but the project is probably so complicated he has no clue where the fix would be. Large projects should be broken up, it's part of the original argument against systemd, but it would apply to different projects also.

Now, if the truth is, "we don't have the manpower or talent," then people should just say so.

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HuangLao
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#9 Post by HuangLao »

bw123 wrote:
HuangLao wrote:Because when you do that you create distro specific bugs/security holes that upstream is not aware of nor can they issue a fix/patch. Remember the Debian SSL fiasco? If not, here you go:
https://research.swtch.com/openssl
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/2 ... _hangover/
That's BS, debian implementing a feature or fix or deviation and upstream not being aware of it sounds like a myth. Yeah I'm too young to rememeber 2008, and I'm aware of a lot of fiascos, but mistakes happen, it's how people learn. Maintainers should not be afraid of upstream. The point is, mbiebl is talented, but the project is probably so complicated he has no clue where the fix would be. Large projects should be broken up, it's part of the original argument against systemd, but it would apply to different projects also.

Now, if the truth is, "we don't have the manpower or talent," then people should just say so.
Your comment shows your lack of understanding, and why you do not see it as a problem. There are exceptions, however, generally it is best to stick to upstream unless you can document exactly why what upstream did was wrong etc... This principle goes back to Unix days, once you start fudging with the program it is no longer upstreams program its now your program and your problem, you also lose your "right" to bitch upstream.

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Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#10 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Wheelerof4te wrote:Or someone should tell Pottering to stop breaking something every new release. Maybe he could ask Linus about his #1 rule, and apply it to his unfortunate project.

We know what happens to the guy who commits a breaking change to the Linux kernel. He gets schooled by Linus personally.
What planet are you living on d00d?

The Linux kernel breaks all the ****ing time, they don't give a shit about b0rkage as long as they can cram their shiny new features in...

Arch Linux has an LTS kernel package for exactly this reason and they advise that is installed in case of upstream problems:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Sy ... ts_package

One of the main advantages of Debian stable is that it insulates the user against rapid upstream changes.

I have no issue running systemd because all of the complaints levelled against that can also be applied to the kernel.

EDIT: posted from OpenBSD :mrgreen:
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llivv
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#11 Post by llivv »

who puts the $ in the hat :lol:

:mrgreen: dig LTS

which came first systemd SJW bitchin at kernel monks or kernel monks bitchin at systemd SJW
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golinux
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#12 Post by golinux »

llivv wrote:which came first systemd SJW bitchin at kernel monks or kernel monks bitchin at systemd SJW
Speaking of which . . . https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments ... ment_team/

About 1/2 way down the page:
sanctuaire
Well, Devuan gained a new dev.
He would be welcome. :D
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llivv
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#13 Post by llivv »

near the bottom of comments :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
CameronNemo 11 hours ago
I doubt it is solely regarding that issue. He probably had some other frustrations of a similar nature in the past. People can snap in surprising ways.

smirkybg 14 hours ago
He probably installed Devuan :)

DependsOnBase 12 hours ago
Are you an idiot? He was the systemd maintainer for Debian.

masterblaster0 12 hours ago
Nah he's not being an idiot, you just don't get his humour.

oskarw85 1 hour ago
His humour is not funny.

masterblaster0 1 hour ago
That is entirely subjective :)
golinux wrote:Speaking of which . . . https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/agojll
isn't that the link in the very next post, after masterblaster0's comment 1 hour ago.?
seems to me like I scraped those four link and surrounding entries for at least a few hours before going to bed. - All the while thinking to myself
llivv wrote: It's a trap!
which devs - which modus operandi

see also: train wreck - dumpster fire - etc etc :lol:
Last edited by llivv on 2019-01-17 09:11, edited 1 time in total.
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xepan
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#14 Post by xepan »

what the maintainer of systemd wrote:
that sure is funny.

as far systemd is concerned, lemme quote J. Joyce:
Every jackass on the road has got ideas
bit of a shame debian now is among the jackass crowd too, following hypes in a hurry, but well ...
(it was well known - and hated - for the exact opposite: first test very well, then test again, when bored to death by all the testing, test once again, and then implement. If they would have sticked to that approach, systemd wouldn't have been the default init for stretch for sure, it was implemented in in a hurry).

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llivv
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#15 Post by llivv »

debian systemd has quite a load to handle. see bugtracker
There are a few recent sysv reports their as well,
with a polite brushoff saying no sysv installed here to look at your issue.
There is a non-official way to handle debian sysv that is similar to LTS but again non-official.

responsibility is a fickle mistress,
when it comes to who's supposed 2 be responsible 4 what, how, when and why.

for example is pottering really upstream of just another maintainer in the chain.
Seems to me like upstream systemd has an agenda and a predefined way of managing issues..
That was my impression when these issues started showing up at GNU and kernel
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Wheelerof4te
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#16 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:The Linux kernel breaks all the ****ing time, they don't give a shit about b0rkage as long as they can cram their shiny new features in...

Arch Linux has an LTS kernel package for exactly this reason and they advise that is installed in case of upstream problems:
The Linux kernel often breaks kernel-space, it rarely breaks user-space. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_interfaces
Kernel space being out of the tree modules, such as ZFS, Broadcom's wl driver, NVIDIA driver etc...
Kernel devs even say that they don't care what happens outside of kernel-space, it's beyond their control anyway. What would have happened if they suddenly started caring? Well, their development would come to a crawl.

Having more than one kernel is advisable in any case, not just with Arch Linux. Every good sysadmin knows that. But here's the thing: you can't have more than one systemd on one system.
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:One of the main advantages of Debian stable is that it insulates the user against rapid upstream changes.
But in order to get to the next Debian Stable, we have to have some rules or the entire thing will break apart and will need more time fixing. Software development moves fast, and people can't stick with one Debian Stable forever.

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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#17 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Wheelerof4te wrote:The Linux kernel often breaks kernel-space, it rarely breaks user-space.
Why is it better than the b0rkage is in kernel space? Isn't that much more problematic than user space changes?

And no, "kernel-space" doesn't mean out-of-tree modules (although it does include them).

http://www.linfo.org/kernel_space.html
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golinux
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#18 Post by golinux »

llivv wrote:There are a few recent sysv reports their as well,
with a polite brushoff saying no sysv installed here to look at your issue.
There is a non-official way to handle debian sysv that is similar to LTS but again non-official.
The sysv bugs are being handled collaboratively by Debian, Devuan and upstream because that is the only way to keep it alive in Debian. If init freedom dies in Debian there will be an even greater exodus. Then init freedom in Debian will be forgotten because anyone who remembers will have left the building. Then the coup (as predicted) will be complete. Welcome Winix . . .
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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#19 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Why is it better than the b0rkage is in kernel space? Isn't that much more problematic than user space changes?
I didn't say it's better, don't put words in my mouth.

I only said kernel-space breakage happens much more often than user-space because of the nature of out of the tree modules. If companies would upstream those drivers (like AMD is doing now), then the breakage would be less common and easier to fix.
Other kernel-space related breakages happen once in a blue moon. And when it does happen, it's recognized as a bug and a breakage, not a feature to which downstream must adapt.
BTW, in order not to derail this thread, I mentioned Linus and his #1 rule because he is adamant in enforcing it when he is being informed about it. In the case of systemd, we see that it's main developer is not as concerned, until Debian's maintainer decided to quit maintaining systemd. For a while, I hope, not forever.

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Re: Debian systemd maintainer "taking a break"

#20 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Wheelerof4te wrote:I only said kernel-space breakage happens much more often than user-space because of the nature of out of the tree modules.
I don't use out-of-tree modules and stuff still breaks, the ArchWiki recommendation makes no mention of tainted kernels either.

My point here is that the kernel devs do break stuff, I can't comment on the relative frquency of this b0rkage without conducting a formal study though.
Wheelerof4te wrote:when it does happen, it's recognized as a bug and a breakage, not a feature to which downstream must adapt.
Your linked bug report seems to show that the systemd developers are acting in the same way, Lennart & co. have acknowledged the problem and are actually trying to fix this.
Wheelerof4te wrote:In the case of systemd, we see that it's main developer is not as concerned, until Debian's maintainer decided to quit maintaining systemd.
Bullshit.

Lennart's first reply in that thread was an attempt to narrow down the cause of the problem in order to fix it:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issu ... -454515587
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