Stop making XFCE single CD images

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Danielsan
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Stop making XFCE single CD images

#1 Post by Danielsan »

Stop making XFCE single CD images
Does anyone know this reason behind the "Hardware support changes" on the next Debian Installer?

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golinux
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#2 Post by golinux »

Danielsan wrote:
Stop making XFCE single CD images
Does anyone know this reason behind the "Hardware support changes" on the next Debian Installer?
Bloat?
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Danielsan
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#3 Post by Danielsan »

Eventually I realized the reason is because the ISO doesn't fit anymore into a CD, but I would like to have still an XFCE iso whatsoever... :cry:

sgosnell
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#4 Post by sgosnell »

There are .iso files with Xfce, they just won't fit on a CD. They will fit on most USB flash drives, or on a DVD. Or you can use the netinst .iso, and install whatever DE you like, including Xfce.
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/cu ... so-hybrid/
Direct to Xfce
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/cu ... 4-xfce.iso
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Dai_trying
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#5 Post by Dai_trying »

I have been creating my own live-cd images (also ironically too big to fit on a CD) using live-build, it can be a little frustrating to get everything set-up how you might want/need it but after much trial and error I found a solution that works for me. Another plus for doing this is that I can set localisation, packages in the live-session, packages installed and many more options to make everything exactly how I want it, meaning after installation I have no "cleaning up" to do or other packages to install, and any firmware required can be installed easily which is incredibly useful (to me) when I have to install to a machine without ethernet connection.

This might not be of any use if you have no desire to put in the effort, but I usually perform many installs/re-installs and this saved me a lot of time and effort once created and running my build script again creates another image with the latest available packages each time.

Obviously YMMV but it works well for me.

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Danielsan
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#6 Post by Danielsan »

I think there are still countries around the world where re-writable CD and DVD are still the common method to store and share heavy files... If they cannot fit anymore the XFCE iso into a CD makes sense removing it, if the primary scope of the ISO was providing a full CD image rather than a XFCE Debian flavor...

sgosnell
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#7 Post by sgosnell »

Given the ubiquity of USB flash drives, and their relative low price, I would be surprised if anyone anywhere is still using CD/DVD disks for transferring files. That's just too wasteful and expensive. The rewritable disks just don't last that long, at least in my experience from years ago. I can get a 4GB USB drive for a couple of dollars, and don't need to have a special drive to use it. Optical disks are okay for long-term backup storage, but I still don't use them. I have a stack on a shelf, but I haven't used one in years.
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RU55EL
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#8 Post by RU55EL »

sgosnell wrote:Optical disks are okay for long-term backup storage, but I still don't use them. I have a stack on a shelf, but I haven't used one in years.
Same here, (except for using them) that is why when a new version of Debian comes out, I burn a copy so that I can use it to upgrade my computers. I don't have to reformat any of my USB drives and I am making use of old Discs that I don't really have other use for. Debian point releases can be updated online quickly enough, so a disc with Debian 9.0, 10.0, etc., does the job, without tying up a USB drive (even temporarily. )

Of course, this no longer includes CDs with XFCE.

sgosnell
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#9 Post by sgosnell »

I keep a USB drive which has ventoy installed on it, and I can just do a normal copy of .iso files to it, and boot whichever I choose. It gives a menu at boot time, listing all the .iso files present, and any of them will boot. I keep the live Debian, plus several others, including a bootable gparted .iso, just in case. When an image becomes obsolete, all that is necessary is to delete it and copy another to the drive. Very handy. Once ventoy is installed, there is no more need for any special treatment, just a simple copy, of any bootable .iso.
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MicroScreen
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#10 Post by MicroScreen »

sgosnell wrote:I keep a USB drive which has Ventoy installed on it, and I can just do a normal copy of .iso files to it, and boot whichever I choose. It gives a menu at boot time, listing all the .iso files present, and any of them will boot. I keep the live Debian, plus several others, including a bootable gparted .iso, just in case. When an image becomes obsolete, all that is necessary is to delete it and copy another to the drive. Very handy! Once Ventoy is installed, there is no more need for any special treatment, just a simple copy, of any bootable .iso.
But the strongest point on it is, there's no need to update Ventoy because of new releases of some distros! :D

However, I would like to point out here that it isn't enough to maximize portability with different data carriers, it's also just as important to maintain flexibility in data access as much as possible. There are still poor people in many third world countries who cannot afford up-to-date hardware with USB ports and are therefore dependent on CD-ROMs, as these are often the only drives that allow a proper installation. Not everyone has access to the Internet, these people are therefore dependent on older types of data storage media that they get from friends, acquaintances or school. It's therefore to be welcomed that Debian provides at least one installation as a CD download. 8)
Last edited by MicroScreen on 2020-12-31 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
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sgosnell
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#11 Post by sgosnell »

With the ubiquity of USB flash drives, I would think they are at least as available as CDs in most areas of the world, and are far more versatile and useful. They can be rewritten with a newer OS as needed, or used for other storage when not needed as installation media. Am I missing something here?
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RU55EL
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#12 Post by RU55EL »

USB drives are more useful and versatile than CDs, but if you have a stack of CDs sitting around you might as well use them. Burning a copy of each Debian version, when they come out, works for me, saving my USB drives for other use and slowly using up a resource that would otherwise be sitting on the self unused.

Of course, if you don't have blank CDs sitting around a USB drive is the logical choice.

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MicroScreen
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#13 Post by MicroScreen »

sgosnell wrote:Am I missing something here?
Yes, it isn't about the availability of USB sticks in Third World countries, but about the old hardware, which very often doesn't have a USB interface, but only a CD drive, as mentioned above. There are a lot of poor people there who can't afford up-to-date hardware! :roll:
"Move forward and do what you think is best. If you make a mistake, you’ll learn something. But don't make the same mistake twice." - Akio Morita

sgosnell
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#14 Post by sgosnell »

USB was released in 1996. Almost every computer built in the past 20 years has USB.
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p.H
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#15 Post by p.H »

But not all computers with USB ports can boot from USB. I have motherboards from ~2002 which are supposed to be able to boot from USB but cannot actually boot from a Debian installer image (or anything else I tried) on a USB flash drive. I vaguely remember reading something about old BIOS considering a USB flash drive as floppy disk instead of a hard disk and expecting a specific format.

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MicroScreen
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#16 Post by MicroScreen »

sgosnell wrote:USB was released in 1996. Almost every computer built in the past 20 years has USB.
"Almost" is an extremely relative term because, as already mentioned, there is still a lot of old hardware that simply doesn't have this interface for different reasons! So what's so difficult to understand about that?
"Move forward and do what you think is best. If you make a mistake, you’ll learn something. But don't make the same mistake twice." - Akio Morita

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MicroScreen
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#17 Post by MicroScreen »

p.H wrote:I vaguely remember reading something about old BIOS considering a USB flash drive as floppy disk instead of a hard disk and expecting a specific format.
That's right, these devices had a USB 1.1 interface, which wasn't able to boot any medium without a BIOS update, that was often only available later.
"Move forward and do what you think is best. If you make a mistake, you’ll learn something. But don't make the same mistake twice." - Akio Morita

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RU55EL
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#18 Post by RU55EL »

sgosnell wrote:USB was released in 1996. Almost every computer built in the past 20 years has USB.
I have a few computers that don't have USB, they were put together from old spare parts that I had laying around. I'm not sure how old the parts are, but Debian runs well enough on the hardware to use. How many computers in third world counties are build by major manufacturers and how many are pieced together from old parts?

sgosnell
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#19 Post by sgosnell »

Well, one has to use what is available, of course. But technology keeps advancing, and that cannot be stopped. The rest of the world will not continue to use obsolete media or hardware just to cater to the small percentage of people who only have decades-old equipment. 5.25" floppies are no longer available, and software keeps growing in size. I don't see that changing soon. If your machine will only boot from a CD drive, you're going to be left with few options. Regrettably, that's the reality. Ancient hardware generally requires equally ancient software. Early Debian versions are still available for download. But going forward, newer versions won't fit on a CD, just as no modern OS will fit on a single floppy drive, nor a 10MB hard drive. It's not ideal, but it's reality.
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golinux
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Re: Stop making XFCE single CD images

#20 Post by golinux »

sgosnell wrote:Well, one has to use what is available, of course. But technology keeps advancing, and that cannot be stopped. The rest of the world will not continue to use obsolete media or hardware just to cater to the small percentage of people who only have decades-old equipment. 5.25" floppies are no longer available, and software keeps growing in size. I don't see that changing soon. If your machine will only boot from a CD drive, you're going to be left with few options. Regrettably, that's the reality. Ancient hardware generally requires equally ancient software. Early Debian versions are still available for download. But going forward, newer versions won't fit on a CD, just as no modern OS will fit on a single floppy drive, nor a 10MB hard drive. It's not ideal, but it's reality.
That is the view of privilege that ignores the question of "reality for whom"? Technology will continue to advance and further exacerbate the divide as capital flows upward and leaves more and more humans barely able to feed themselves. Maybe I am misreading you position but I find it to be in denial of the reality of millions on this planet. "Let then eat cake" seems to be your answer.
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