What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

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Danielsan
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What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#1 Post by Danielsan »

Where did it born all this hate again him inside Debian?

I personally signed the letter in his favor because I found repugnant all this misrepresentation, defamation and media mob and I didn't understand why Debian was in front line...

There was also an individual that wrote a chrome extension to mark who signed in his favor...

https://github.com/aaronbassett/rms-letter-sigs

This is like persecution, terrorism and blackmailing. When I saw it I decided to sign the letter in his favor, no one can blackmailing me...

Anyway I have been always pretty critique against the FSF and I always complaining with them over almost everything but that happened with that letter was a personal attack that had nothing to do with RMS work or the FSF. The awkward attitude of RMS it is something unrelated with the Free Software Culture and I couldn't connect the two points since I have never met him; however I always thought RMS never understood that he had better to speak only about free software.

Said that as a matter of fact Debian is actually voting about having an official position against RMS:

https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002

That is crazy for me there is no need to take any action, but I hope that the same line took by the OSI would be discouraged. It would be a shame leaving Debian for some manipulation made by external pressures...

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#2 Post by CwF »

Sad.

Many simply don't know better. Similar to running out of rich people money, there isn't enough talent to fill all the need either. Many, if not most people suck.

I've hired, I've fired. One thing I've learned for sure, you take talent where you get it. If that person needs put in place, grow a pair.

Proposal F

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#3 Post by steve_v »

Danielsan wrote:What's wrong with Debian and RMS?
More by the day, and about the same as ever, respectively.

Danielsan wrote:I personally signed the letter in his favor because I found repugnant all this misrepresentation, defamation and media mob
Likewise. The behaviour of the lynch-mob is disgusting.
Danielsan wrote:and I didn't understand why Debian was in front line
Dunno. Probably because a) virtue-signalling is more important these days than free-software, and b) they're too chickenshit to risk ending up on the mobs hit-list themselves.
Danielsan wrote:This is like persecution, terrorism and blackmailing.
It's not like that, it is that. Exactly.
Danielsan wrote:I always thought RMS never understood that he had better to speak only about free software.
Perhaps. The way I see it, pretty much everyone has some opinion or other that yuur'e going to disagree with. That's life.
RMS just happens to be both rather abrasive and largely unable to keep his mouth shut. Neither of those are crimes, and neither reflect on his ability or his dedication to the cause.

Danielsan wrote:Said that as a matter of fact Debian is actually voting
Indeed it is. It's also a properly spineless response to an irrational and unwarranted attack by the social media horde.
Unfortunatley there's corporate image and funding at stake, so spines are in short supply.

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#4 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Danielsan wrote:Said that as a matter of fact Debian is actually voting about having an official position against RMS:

https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002

That is crazy for me there is no need to take any action
Taking no action is one of the options in the fully open, entirely transparent, democratic process being conducted:

https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002#texta
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#5 Post by ticojohn »

Not sure I understand your points of view. Reading the General Resolution page it would appear to me that Debian, while it may be voting, is actually in support of RMS.
To the FSF:

Removing RMS will hurt FSF’s image and will deal a significant blow to the momentum of the free software movement. We urge you to consider your actions carefully, as what you will decide will have a serious impact on the future of the software industry.
To the ambush mob who is ganging up on Richard Stallman over reasonable arguments in debate and various opinions and beliefs voiced over decades as a public figure:

You have no part in choosing the leadership of any communities. Especially not via another mob attack which does not remotely resemble a fairly conducted debate as exemplified by better people such as Richard Stallman.
Of course I really don't understand people very well so maybe I really don't understand the opinions expressed by the OP and HOAS. And this may be my last incursion into public debate as I am sure I will catch the crap from all sides.
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#6 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

ticojohn wrote:it would appear to me that Debian, while it may be voting, is actually in support of RMS
That's just the one of the voting options listed on the page. There are a total of seven options available to the developers. One of the options would even be supported by the conspiracy theory nutcases: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002#textf
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#7 Post by ticojohn »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: That's just the one of the voting options listed on the page. There are a total of seven options available to the developers. One of the options would even be supported by the conspiracy theory nutcases: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002#textf
That's true. And the core of your statement is
conspiracy theory nutcases
I place many of the worlds problems firmly in the lap of the so called social media. To me, there isn't much that is social about it. In my opinion it is down right anti-social and borderline anarchistic. But then I'm just an old fart with old school ideas about life.
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#8 Post by steve_v »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:That's just the one of the voting options listed on the page.
What gets me is the apparent lack of support for the "condemn the mob" option. Whether one is in support of RMS or not I'd have figured the no-pitchforks stance to be a no-brainer.

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Danielsan
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#9 Post by Danielsan »

My point is based on what happened the first moving against RMS were people involved (heavily) with Debian, looks like something more personal than a community thing... :?

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#10 Post by golinux »

This explains quite clearly the dynamics in play and is well worth a read:
To the Free Software Movement

That is the world in which I want to live and contribute.
May the FORK be with you!

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Danielsan
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#11 Post by Danielsan »

golinux wrote:This explains quite clearly the dynamics in play and is well worth a read:
To the Free Software Movement

That is the world in which I want to live and contribute.
Love it!

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#12 Post by dice »

personally i would have nothing to do with this, dont sign any letter for or against. I believe this thread should be locked.

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#13 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

This is insane.

I have no doubt that the #MeToo movement has been manipulated, and it is now used as a political hammer to crush selected people and organizations, without having to provide any formal proofs, which could be used in a court.

On one hand, the RMS personal opinions have no connection with his role in FSF, and nobody, including Debian should demand his resignation. Even more stupid is demanding to stop cooperation with the FSF.
Apparrently, there are hidden interests behind those demands.

On the onther hand, if Debian will not get involved in this MOB action, it could be accused of "not sufficiently supporting" the #MeToo movement, which is perceived as a "crime" in our stupid world driven by corporate mainstream media.

Somebody should stop this madness.
dice wrote:personally i would have nothing to do with this, dont sign any letter for or against. I believe this thread should be locked.
Pretending that there's no problem does not solve problem.
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#14 Post by dice »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:This is insane.

I have no doubt that the #MeToo movement has been manipulated, and it is now used as a political hammer to crush selected people and organizations, without having to provide any formal proofs, which could be used in a court.

On one hand, the RMS personal opinions have no connection with his role in FSF, and nobody, including Debian should demand his resignation. Even more stupid is demanding to stop cooperation with the FSF.
Apparrently, there are hidden interests behind those demands.

On the onther hand, if Debian will not get involved in this MOB action, it could be accused of "not sufficiently supporting" the #MeToo movement, which is perceived as a "crime" in our stupid world driven by corporate mainstream media.

Somebody should stop this madness.
dice wrote:personally i would have nothing to do with this, dont sign any letter for or against. I believe this thread should be locked.
Pretending that there's no problem does not solve problem.
There is no problem to begin with. These people are venturing into legalese and computational law.

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#15 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

dice wrote: There is no problem to begin with.
The problem:
1. RMS expressed his personal opinion, claiming that Mr Marvin Minsky would not rape any woman without having agreement from that woman.
2. The wife of Mr Minsky says that she have spent all the time with her husband.
3. Mrs Virginia Guiffre is claiming that she was "instructed to have sex with" Mr Minsky (instructed ? by who ?) (75 years old man)
Somebody is lying here.

Who is in charge to judge who is lying? Debian developers? Mozilla Corporation? Or maybe those 3000 people who have signed the letter, but who have completely no idea what is the truth?

This is the problem.
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#16 Post by steve_v »

dice wrote:personally i would have nothing to do with this, dont sign any letter for or against. I believe this thread should be locked.
Whether or not you want to sign letters is personal preference, but what the Debian leadership decides to do is going to have consequences for Debian users and the free-software community at large.
Burying your head in the sand and calling for thread locks doesn't change anything, and IMO Debian GRs are a completely valid topic for this sub.
dice wrote:There is no problem to begin with.
A social-media mob lynching the founder of the free-software movement, and Debian leadership potentially legitimising such behaviour? You call that "no problem"?
Thought-police and witch-hunts most definitely are a problem, doubly so when they're going after the very people who made Debian GNU/Linux possible.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:RMS expressed his personal opinion
Yes, he did. And that's where it should have stopped, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

What actually happened WRT Minsky et. al. is irrelevant as far as the anti-RMS campaign is concerned, what we're talking about here is mob-justice for voicing an opinion. RMS himself had no part in the original saga, and he committed no crime. He simply speculated as to the likely chain of events, just like everyone else did at the time.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:driven by corporate mainstream media
Mayhap this is right on the money, no? Perhaps the corporations whose platforms are the basis for this mob might have a stake in taking down someone so opposed to their control as well... But then I'd be speculating, wouldn't I. :P

Either way, Debian is voting on a response. IMO that response being anything but "Down with mob-justice" (i.e. proposal E or F) would be a massive copout, and a grave disservice to the free software community. This madness has gone on far too long already. Enough.

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#17 Post by Hallvor »

The litmus test of a democratic mindset is the extent to which we tolerate the opinions we dislike.
“Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.”

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#18 Post by dice »

steve_v wrote:
dice wrote:
dice wrote:There is no problem to begin with.
A social-media mob lynching the founder of the free-software movement, and Debian leadership potentially legitimising such behaviour? You call that "no problem"?
Thought-police and witch-hunts most definitely are a problem, doubly so when they're going after the very people who made Debian GNU/Linux possible.
I just dont see how this will affect debian as an operating system i suppose? Do you know what RMS has said about this, does he care?

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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#19 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

Debian exists because RMS started the GNU project and the Free Software campaign.
Linux kernel exists because GNU project team led by RMS have adopted it as a main kernel for the GNU Operating System.
steve_v wrote:Mayhap this is right on the money, no?
^This explains a lot, thanks for the link.
I think that Debian developers should read this article before they do something really stupid.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and RMS?

#20 Post by ticojohn »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:
steve_v wrote:Mayhap this is right on the money, no?
^This explains a lot, thanks for the link.
I think that Debian developers should read this article before they do something really stupid.
I read the article and it seems to be right on target. I think that those who might vote against RMS are basically looking to turn the FSF into a bunch of corporate eunuchs. As to people doing stupid things, intelligence (assuming that most of the developers are intelligent) neither implies nor confers wisdom. We can only hope that the membership of the FSF gains some wisdom before they castrate the organization.
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

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