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Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

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jschenard
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Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#1 Post by jschenard »

Good afternoon I hope everyone is doing well.

Well - I must say I am quite impressed by Debian again. Compared to the previous versions ( 10 and below ) I must admit that Debian 11 is really special - in a very good way.

There is a clear departure of the superuser only distro, or the difficult OS to install. Debian 11 is now surpassing Ubuntu in many aspects. Let me elaborate.

1 - installation - Now easier than ever. The graphical interface, altough still old for the install, is working and straight forward. Manual partitioning is a breeze and you can create an encrypted volume by yourself without any problems. ubuntu installer tends to crash sometimes post install on many computers. Debian is just straight forward.

2- Stable does not mean SUPER OLD software now. - Debian 11 ships with Gnome 3.38. Of course this is not the latest Gnome, but this is not the oldest Gnome either. Ubuntu 20.04 is on Gnome 3.36 - and 21.04 is on 3.38 , 21.10 will be on Gnome 40 if I am not mistaken and ubuntu 22.04 LTS would get the new GNOME 42. - Ubuntu Gnome 3.36 is awful with no sortings. I was fearing that this release would get this version of GNOME but no. I am please with that choice. Gnome 3.38 is stable and solid.

3- Speed - Debian 11 supports Wayland by default - this is a surprise to me as well. It is well implemented and stable.

4- Very good snap support ( you could disagree with me on this one ) - but I love snaps - I do believe this is the future and I believe every apps should run in their own containers for security. It might not be got for very old computers, but for relatively modern hardware with 8GB of RAM ( wich is not an impossible spec to have ) , this is good. I installed Debian on a i5 8365U on a Lenovo nano. this is no way flagship specs compared to my gaming desktop but snaps are working good on this hardware. First boot only takes a few seconds to load.

5- Shift from the developpers towards the end users. The devs used to be rude and RTFM when someone asked questions a few years ago - now they seem to be more friendly or more open towards the end user. This is a good thing since it will open up to more people that way.

6- I am still thinking about other stuff I will update when I have other ideas

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#2 Post by ticojohn »

jschenard wrote: 2021-09-30 17:51 5- Shift from the developpers towards the end users. The devs used to be rude and RTFM when someone asked questions a few years ago - now they seem to be more friendly or more open towards the end user. This is a good thing since it will open up to more people that way.
Hey @jschenard ! Not sure as to whom you are referring. If you are referencing people at this web site, they are not developers. They are, for the most part, just regular users that are here to ask questions and help others the best they can. Some are very knowledgeable, while others (like myself) sometimes just give feedback when they have experienced a similar situation as the poster. Yeah, there have been some respondents that were rather direct and at times condescending. But for the most part members on this site can be very helpful if the poster helps by providing the requested information. Some people can get quite irritated when they are trying to help the poster and the poster doesn't assist by giving the requested info.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#3 Post by Hallvor »

jschenard wrote: 2021-09-30 17:51 Debian 11 supports Wayland by default - this is a surprise to me as well. It is well implemented and stable.
You obviously didn't try it in KDE...
4- Very good snap support ( you could disagree with me on this one ) - but I love snaps - I do believe this is the future and I believe every apps should run in their own containers for security.
Since when did downloading third party binaries from web and reboot every other day become the future? :wink:
Shift from the developpers towards the end users. The devs used to be rude and RTFM when someone asked questions a few years ago - now they seem to be more friendly or more open towards the end user.
The title of the forum itself says Debian User Forums, so that gives a hint. Yes, some users - not developers - have been a little over the top, but mostly because other (mostly new) users have lacked normal manners.

I have never seen new users getting flamed just for being new. New and treating you like a servant, on the other hand, yes. New and obnoxious. Absolutely.

Having said that, there are so many forums out there with fake courtesy, fake friendliness and fake "community spirit", but I happen to like honest people better than liars.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#4 Post by sunrat »

Hallvor wrote: 2021-10-01 20:54
4- Very good snap support ( you could disagree with me on this one ) - but I love snaps - I do believe this is the future and I believe every apps should run in their own containers for security.
Since when did downloading third party binaries from web and reboot every other day become the future? :wink:
Agree 100% @Hallvor
Snaps (and flatpaks too) are a disease on Linux. The concept of installing a whole other runtime just for a program is absurd, it's like having a whole other operating system inside the operating system which already provides the required functions natively. Same goes for Java, MS .NET etc. I started to install a snap once and it threatened to install a gigabyte of dependencies just to run a program that the native equivalent needed ~7MB. Absurd. Not to mention more questions in forums like "my snap doesn't appear in the application menu, how do I start it?"
I confess to having two Appimages which are different - standalone applications containing all their required libs etc. Still crazy large but at least they don't impinge on the base OS.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#5 Post by jschenard »

@sunrat

I have no doubt about the snap with 1GB - would you be kind enough to tell me what was that snap if you remember? I am curious and would like to try it myself.

@Hallvor

This is where I friendly disagree with snaps. I do believe that confined applications when properly implemented, are very good for the security of the system.

Edward Snowden is using a Linux operating system ( I don't remember the name sadly) doing just that. It's all sandboxed.

I use debian on a relatively ok machine using an i5 8365u with vpro ( Lenovo nano). I have another gaming pc thst is much more powerful but sadly I use windows on this one due to some compatibility issue and at the end of the day if I want to play a game I just want it to work - but tulhisnis another topic.

For snaps I'm not sure if it used virtualization but I get zero performance drop using snaps, and I got performancr degradation if I turn virtualization off. Not too sure.

For wayland, it is true that I do not use KDE. I use gnome. Since gnome 3.38, this desktop environment is my favorite. I like what Gnome.org is doing for with the future of the platform

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#6 Post by cds60601 »

sunrat wrote: 2021-10-01 23:22
Hallvor wrote: 2021-10-01 20:54
4- Very good snap support ( you could disagree with me on this one ) - but I love snaps - I do believe this is the future and I believe every apps should run in their own containers for security.
Since when did downloading third party binaries from web and reboot every other day become the future? :wink:
Agree 100% @Hallvor
Snaps (and flatpaks too) are a disease on Linux. The concept of installing a whole other runtime just for a program is absurd, it's like having a whole other operating system inside the operating system which already provides the required functions natively. Same goes for Java, MS .NET etc
Kinda feels like installing apps the Microsoft way, doesn't it.
Fortunately, I have not run into a need to use any of em and I hope it stays that way too.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#7 Post by sunrat »

jschenard wrote: 2021-10-02 00:35 @sunrat

I have no doubt about the snap with 1GB - would you be kind enough to tell me what was that snap if you remember? I am curious and would like to try it myself.
Don't remember, sorry. I just recall thinking "WTF, 1GB, are you kidding me. Abort install" It may have been a bulk rename utility but I found the same function in native Double Commander.
@Hallvor

This is where I friendly disagree with snaps. I do believe that confined applications when properly implemented, are very good for the security of the system.
There are other ways to sandbox applications. The Snap store has hosted several snaps with malware so security can be worse. Snap store has been reported to have a poor audit process.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#8 Post by Hallvor »

jschenard wrote: 2021-10-02 00:35 This is where I friendly disagree with snaps. I do believe that confined applications when properly implemented, are very good for the security of the system.
Of course, properly confined applications is a good thing. Take Firefox with firejail, for instance. Instead of offering access to the entire home directory, you give it access to a single folder and lock down everything else.

Many - if not most - snaps that you download will have write permissions to your home directory. Now, this means that the sandbox is a bluff, because any malicious snap packager can add a line to ~/.bashrc to download and execute whatever he wants. My point is that without trust, you can not speak of security.

I have some experience with snaps, having run KDE Neon on a spare computer to check out the latest version of KDE. Neon, as you may know, runs the entire desktop as snaps on top of Ubuntu LTS. Not only did it take insane amounts of resources and become sluggish. It also prompted me for reboots after (very frequent) upgrades, and the changes would not take effect until I had rebooted. It was GNU/Linux utterly Windowsed.

From the Linux Mint Blog:
Applications in [Ubuntu] store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can’t audit them, hold them, modify them or even point snap to a different store. You’ve as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it installs itself without asking you.
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906
Edward Snowden is using a Linux operating system ( I don't remember the name sadly) doing just that. It's all sandboxed.
That is probably a good idea, though I'd probably run it read only if I was him.
but I get zero performance drop
That is mathematically impossible.
I like what Gnome.org is doing for with the future of the platform.
:shock:
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#9 Post by ticojohn »

jschenard wrote: 2021-10-02 00:35 I like what Gnome.org is doing for with the future of the platform
Egads! In my opinion, if you like what Gnome.org is doing then you might as well use Microsoft :twisted: .
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#10 Post by Onsemeliot »

jschenard wrote: 2021-10-02 00:35 Edward Snowden is using a Linux operating system ( I don't remember the name sadly) doing just that. It's all sandboxed.
Are you referring to Qubes OS? To my understanding this is radically different from Snap or FlatPack because the base system is as minimal as it can be and applications usually start their own virtual machines ... or at least you can decide which applications you want to run in the same virtual machine. It has a performance penalty and I wouldn't recommend this for people doing more demanding stuff.

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#11 Post by maxb »

jschenard wrote: 2021-10-02 00:35 I like what Gnome.org is doing for with the future of the platform
Are they the ones pushing Snap? I thought it was Ubuntu? What are you referring to?

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#12 Post by maxb »

sunrat wrote: 2021-10-01 23:22 I started to install a snap once and it threatened to install a gigabyte of dependencies just to run a program that the native equivalent needed ~7MB.
Programmers will continue to invent new ways to waste RAM. Microsoft's Altair BASIC interpreter needed 3306 bytes of memory.

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#13 Post by Uptorn »

cds60601 wrote: 2021-10-02 00:37
sunrat wrote: 2021-10-01 23:22
Hallvor wrote: 2021-10-01 20:54
Since when did downloading third party binaries from web and reboot every other day become the future? :wink:
Agree 100% @Hallvor
Snaps (and flatpaks too) are a disease on Linux. The concept of installing a whole other runtime just for a program is absurd, it's like having a whole other operating system inside the operating system which already provides the required functions natively. Same goes for Java, MS .NET etc
Kinda feels like installing apps the Microsoft way, doesn't it.
Fortunately, I have not run into a need to use any of em and I hope it stays that way too.
I suspect that these packaging concepts have only gained any prominence to appease people who expect Linux to be Windows.

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#14 Post by steve_v »

Uptorn wrote: 2022-01-22 03:17I suspect that these packaging concepts have only gained any prominence to appease people who expect Linux to be Windows.
Pretty much. Both on the user side with the one-click "bloat store" nonsense, and on the developer "I don't want to deal with maintainers" end.

jschenard wrote: 2021-09-30 17:51 Very good snap support ( you could disagree with me on this one ) - but I love snaps - I do believe this is the future and I believe every apps should run in their own containers for security.
Snaps are not about security, and never have been. Snaps are a security nightmare.
What snaps are is a way for lazy and proprietary software developers to avoid dealing with (and having their stuff audited by) distribution maintainers. That, and a way to sneak closed-source software into distributions that refuse to package it.

As a side-effect, we get gratuitous wastage of storage and memory, needlessly slow application startup, unreliable updates and QA, and a bunch of proprietary software lined up beside proper FOSS offerings with no clear differentiation. This is not progress.
Add to that all the ex-windows developers using these "first party" distribution channels to avoid keeping up with library version bumps, responding to maintainer-raised bug-reports and security problems, and making sure their software actually compiles properly on other people's systems (or other architectures), and we edge closer to a Windows clone every day.

Tell me, who audits the snap store and all the 50,000 different libraries and versions thereof inside those snap packages? Who makes sure that when there's a critical openssl update, all the snaps bundling openssl actually get updated on time?



A certain group has been pushing for a "unified" GNU/Linux package format (and a unified GNU/Linux environment in general) for decades. It doesn't work, it will probably never work, and bloated per-application runtimes is absolutely not the answer.
As far as I can see, the only users who actually back this idea are those who can't be bothered making decisions for themselves or learning the bare basics of how their system works. This is almost always justified with arguments centring around "easy" "average user" (whoever that is), and "more market share"... As if more non-technical, non-contributing, "one-click-everything" windows-refugees is what we need, which it isn't.

GNU/Linux is the diverse, flexible, stable, and (somewhat surprisingly) secure platform it is today precisely because we have managed repositories with distribution maintainers and security teams overseeing them, and package formats that allow end-users to easily modify and rebuild software... Often leading to those users becoming developers or maintainers themselves.

Snaps, flatpack, app stores... Just click the shiny button. Don't think too hard, just consoom. Bah. (or "Baaa").
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#15 Post by canci »

sunrat wrote: 2021-10-01 23:22 Snaps (and flatpaks too) are a disease on Linux.
Wow, that's quite theatrical, but I totally get your anger and point about them being bloated and wasteful. I like them as a supplementary tool to quickly install latest version foo without having to use shoddy PPAs, frankensteining my system or compiling stuff myself, but that's it.

The only thing I'd love to see from that ecosystem replicated in deb packages is fine tuned rights management. For instance, I'd like stuff from the Firefox user directory (or any programme that is regularly making connections to the Internet) not being able to access anything else in my /home directory unless I permit it. That way, I'd be more comfortable using stuff like Zoom etc. when the outside world forces me to use it. I'm lucky enough to have another PC where I don't have any private data and can just run shoddy proprietary stuff like that, and I wouldn't be opposed to running stuff in Firejail, etc., but I guess for regular users, it would be great if all Linux packaging formats supported some standardised granular rights management -- maybe call it xdg-whatever and make a simple GUI tool for noobs.

That being said, even if we theoretically have all these possibilities for sandboxing, in Flatpak for example most programmes don't even use it. So the best advantage of them is kinda moot. :lol: Plus, someone here correctly stated that none of the devs pushing a snap or flatpak package is actually vetting any of the gazillion dependencies that sometimes change daily(!)

I'm also quite scared of the fact that neither the most popular Flatpak repo Flathub, nor the official Snap repo make it easy to see and use only free software.

The best thing about Debian is that programmes are vetted in a meticulous process during the the 1,5-2 years it usually takes for a new release. Big migrations to new versions aren't done on a whim. For instance, we could have had Gnome 40 in Bullseye, but the devs rightfully decided against offering us an interim release where the Gnome devs sort of migrated a bit of the stuff to GTK4, but not the majority of things, etc. They did the same back in the days when KDE decided to release obvious beta-grade software as the new "stable" release of KDE 4.x. I can count on stability and code quality most of the times, even if that means not having access to the latest software, especially once Debian Stable becomes a bit longer in the tooth.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#16 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

maxb wrote: 2021-10-21 17:51
sunrat wrote: 2021-10-01 23:22 I started to install a snap once and it threatened to install a gigabyte of dependencies just to run a program that the native equivalent needed ~7MB.
Programmers will continue to invent new ways to waste RAM. Microsoft's Altair BASIC interpreter needed 3306 bytes of memory.
Standard Debian desktop installation takes ~4.5GB disk space for i686 architecture, and ~6.5GB for amd64. This haven't changed since many years.

Standard Win10 installation (just the OS, no user-installed applications) takes ~6.5GB on amd64 *until* You connect it to the internet. When You connect a windows machine to the network it downloads ~25GB of data, which are completely unnecessary for the OS to work.

But that's not only Microsoft. Every "big" software company is doing exactly the same thing: They are using end-user's machines as a distributed storage and computational system.
That's why f.e. game sizes suddenly jumped from few GB to tens of GB, and that's why on Android, a simple application for connecting a smartwatch can take 200MB.

End-users are paying for the storage devices and for the energy consumed by their systems.
It's hilarious that the explanation of why the systems are slowing down is: "because the hardware is old - You have buy a new one" - while in fact, those systems were intentionally infected by software providers.

Flatpack/Snap/etc are creating possibility for infecting Linux systems in the same way.
All that story about how much easier it is for developers to handle library dependencies, etc is just bullshit.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#17 Post by jmgibson1981 »

It's curious everyone has a reason that snaps ( or flatpak, appimages)exist and are the devil with some nefarious purpose. I'm amazed no one suggested that maybe it's as simple as making app distribution on *nix systems easy with a single release instead of each distro reinventing the wheel for each app. They all have to make their own custom patches and so forth. So much duplicated work.

They may not be perfect but they are a step to a more unified app system. Distros can still have their uniqueness. But no esoteric bs trying to hack something to work on distro X when it works just fine flawlessly on distro Y.
All that story about how much easier it is for developers to handle library dependencies, etc is just bullshit
I'm a naturally paranoid person but this is far more believable than what you posted about them using our resources / storage stuff...

Strictly on the topic though. Debian has always been good for me. Lately though I'm having a ton of trouble with random freezing and such. Another thread suggests my hardware may just be dying... and it is older than dirt. Either that or I've just destroyed my SSDs with so much distro hopping.

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#18 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

All that story about how much easier it is for developers to handle library dependencies, etc is just bullshit
This is simply the truth - only a broken applications would need a snap/flatpak to work.

Anyway, this discussion should be backed with some real-world examples to be viable.

From My point of view (after writing hundreds of thousands lines of code), snap/flatpak are completely useless for distributing a software packages - they are just perfect platform for distributing malware/ransomware/viruses, and there's no single reason for "normal" applications to use snap/flatpak.

If You know some real-life examples where the snap/flatpak saves the world, please let me know.
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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#19 Post by jmgibson1981 »

I don't. But I do know that with a near endless choice of distros and ideas of how things should be put together it is impossible to make some things work on them all without the full source to build it native. And even if you can then you still have that ridiculous idea of duplicated work for each one of those distros instead of it just being done once. That alone is reason enough for me.

I don't like them and use them as little as possible but I fail to see how so much duplicated work is a positive thing under any circumstance.

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Re: Debian 11 honnest disussion ( Very positive !! )

#20 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

Snap/Flatpak/AppImage are supposed to make application development easier, at the cost of using more disk space, more memory and more energy to work, because all the libraries that the application depends on are included in the package.

So basically, the idea behind Snap/Flatpak/AppImage is that stupid end users will cover the costs of "simplified" application development.

Obviously this idea is just stupid, because the developers have to build the libraries which are to be included in the package, and they have to take care of keeping those libraries up-to-date and/or apply the security fixes - how is this "simplifying" application development?

The next "funny" thing is, that the libraries included in the package depend on other system libraries, so a "fully portable" package should contain almost the whole operating system.

To mitigate this problem, idiots responsible for Snap have developed a way to share the libs between Snaps to reduce package sizes - which means that they reinvented the shared libraries, and their "solution" breaks the original idea of having independent application images.

"Those who don't understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it - poorly" :lol:
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