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What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

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What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#1 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

I'm rarely visiting the Debian News webpage, and today I've found this:
Debian' Statement on Daniel Pocock

Who the hell is Daniel Pocock?
Well, obviously DuckDuckGo answered my question, returning many interresting results, especially this one:
https://danielpocock.com/debian-falsifi ... expulsion/

What strikes me, is that aparently Mr Pocock is (was) not the only respected Debian Developer (since 1997) who have "suddenly" became a major enemy for the Debian project.
Anyway, His reasoning about the Appelbaum case looks consistent to me, and definitely He is absolutely right by saying this:
(..) The attack statements from all of these organizations include monotonous texts about Codes of Conduct.
None of them comment on how potential victims can seek support from people qualified to assist victims of crime.
None of them remind people that the accused is innocent until proven guilty by a competent tribunal.
It is rather "hilarious" that Debian is considering "Legal Actions" against Mr Pocock, while they didn't need any court judgement for "hanging" Mr Appelbaum.

This reminds me of another similar situation: the MOB action against Richard Stallman.

I don't care too much about Debian internal problems, but this just doesn't look good.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#2 Post by sunrat »

Any community of diverse individuals may include some who have disagreements or conflicts with other members or the community as a whole. I have experienced this personally in a game community of which I am a mod where several individuals decided they would try to tear down the community because of disagreements.
I'm not particularly familiar with this case or how it started but he is trying to discredit Debian with fake Debian websites and slandering Debian Developers on his own website. No parallels with RS afaik.
There are ways to resolve differences as logical adults, and there are dummy spits. I believe this case is a dummy spit.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#3 Post by donald »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-03 14:30 I'm rarely visiting the Debian News webpage, and today I've found this:
Debian' Statement on Daniel Pocock

Who the hell is Daniel Pocock?
Former Debian Developer who was expelled from the project in 2018 after multiple attempts to address issues with his communication, conflict resolution style, and harassment of fellow project members.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-03 14:30 Well, obviously DuckDuckGo answered my question, returning many interresting results, especially this one:
[url]https://danielpo cock.com/debian-falsified-harassment-claims-appelbaum-expulsion/[/url]
Pocock writes well and writes compellingly, unfortunately the version of events being offered stray far from the actual truth of the matter.

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-03 14:30 What strikes me, is that aparently Mr Pocock is (was) not the only respected Debian Developer (since 1997) who have "suddenly" became a major enemy for the Debian project.

Anyway, His reasoning about the Appelbaum case looks consistent to me, and definitely He is absolutely right by saying this:
(..) The attack statements from all of these organizations include monotonous texts about Codes of Conduct.
None of them comment on how potential victims can seek support from people qualified to assist victims of crime.
None of them remind people that the accused is innocent until proven guilty by a competent tribunal.
This is not true by any means, there was/is actually a long lengthy discussion process involving internal issues or personnel issues within the project, sometimes over the course of years. We are fairly transparent and what you are seeing as "sudden" is actually the end result of the memberships desire, Debian Account managers authority, and multiple warnings for behaviour within or outside of the project.

Project members always have the opportunity afforded to them to object to expulsion, respond to allegations, or have their voices heard. This individual has chosen to reject those means and in the contrary resorted to harassment and slander which pushed the need for our statement and start to legal action.

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-03 14:30 It is rather "hilarious" that Debian is considering "Legal Actions" against Mr Pocock, while they didn't need any court judgement for "hanging" Mr Appelbaum.

This reminds me of another similar situation: the MOB action against Richard Stallman.

I don't care too much about Debian internal problems, but this just doesn't look good.
Multiple F/OSS projects have had issues with him and whom are also undertaking legal recourse to his targeted actions, ours is just the latest statement about his behaviour. Some people have complained as well.

Here is a user perspective that is fairly complete and links back to our original statement and intention: https://twitter.com/oerdnj/status/1236626923226349568
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#4 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

I'm a die-hard Debian user.

I'm promoting Debian whenever it is applicable.

However, Your explanations are just making me wondering whether I have made a good decision:
In particular, You didn't (and You simply can't) prove that MR Appelbaum was really guilty.

"Multiple F/OSS projects have had issues with him" is not a proof, nor an explanation.

It's really SAD, because Debian Project is blindly and mindlessly following the dummy "Code of Conduct"
while forgetting about the fundamental human right to defend oneself in the court -> Yes, by doing this, Debian project is violating the human rights

Even worse, Debian gets involved in a MOB actions ...

It's just sad.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#5 Post by ticojohn »

And once I again I succumbed to reading one the OP's posts. When will I learn?
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#6 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

ticojohn wrote: 2021-12-03 23:44 And once I again I succumbed to reading one the OP's posts. When will I learn?
Feel free to ignore my posts - see no evil, hear no evil - everything's just fine ;)
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#7 Post by donald »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-03 23:26 I'm a die-hard Debian user.

I'm promoting Debian whenever it is applicable.

However, Your explanations are just making me wondering whether I have made a good decision:
In particular, You didn't (and You simply can't) prove that MR Appelbaum was really guilty.

"Multiple F/OSS projects have had issues with him" is not a proof, nor an explanation.

It's really SAD, because Debian Project is blindly and mindlessly following the dummy "Code of Conduct"
while forgetting about the fundamental human right to defend oneself in the court -> Yes, by doing this, Debian project is violating the human rights

Even worse, Debian gets involved in a MOB actions ...

It's just sad.
The 4th line of your original post stated that you used "DuckDuckGo" to find out information, I'd suggest you further employ it and do your own research on the topic(s), especially as it has been shown your source material is tainted. I can only tell you what we know and what we do, which is exactly what I did. As then and as now, "The Debian Project does not have a statement to make about the exclusion of Jacob Appelbaum."

A point of clarification:
donald wrote: 2021-12-03 22:22Multiple F/OSS projects have had issues with him and whom are also undertaking legal recourse to his targeted actions, ours is just the latest statement about his behaviour. Some people have complained as well.
This statement was directed to the topic of the thread and not intended towards Mr. Applebaum for whom no statement was made. Though with some research it does show several F/OSS projects also had internal issues and dialog around him as well.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#8 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

It is just amazing how You're trying to pretend everything is just fine ...

The fact is, that the Debian Project Team have no right to judge on who is guilty.
I could elaborate more on this, but I hope that it won't be necessary ...

And one more thing:
I do understand that the Debian Project Team is aware of the problem -
but it's too late to pretend that nothing have happened.

The Debian Project Team seems to be aware of the fact that they have played an "unfair game" (speaking gently)
- and AFAIN, generally they want to get back to the "fair" version of the game.
IMO there is only one way to do this:
1. The Debian team should apologize for accusing and banning people without having a proof.
2. The Debian team should confirm that the Debian Code of Conduct is not above the human rights -> i.e. the witch hunting *must* be forbidden.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#9 Post by donald »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-04 02:00 It is just amazing how You're trying to pretend everything is just fine ...
We are not pretending anything, everything is fine, we've had a great year, endured some hardships, reached several milestones, argued amongst ourselves, healed, aged, and continue to support F/OSS communities as well as our own. When something is not fine we are transparent about it.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-04 02:00 The fact is, that the Debian Project Team have no right to judge on who is guilty.
I could elaborate more on this, but I hope that it won't be necessary ...


The Debian Project as an organization judges no one. We have rules, a constitution, and a codified set of rules for conduct we expect from our fellow Project members inside of and outside of the project when and where they represent us. Failure to abide by, disdain of ones declaration of intent, or doing things of a nature that harm the community will always invite and qualify some manner of discipline/correction or, failing all other avenues, the unfortunate expulsion.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2021-12-04 02:00 And one more thing:
I do understand that the Debian Project Team is aware of the problem -
but it's too late to pretend that nothing have happened.

The Debian Project Team seems to be aware of the fact that they have played an "unfair game" (speaking gently)
- and AFAIN, generally they want to get back to the "fair" version of the game.
IMO there is only one way to do this:
1. The Debian team should apologize for accusing and banning people without having a proof.
2. The Debian team should confirm that the Debian Code of Conduct is not above the human rights -> i.e. the witch hunting *must* be forbidden.
I can certainly respect your desires and your opinions that you have stated.

I can only ask you do the same with these facts I offer you, and I and we can offer them officially:

Debian will always endeavor to ensure our community is safe and welcome to all.
Debian will continue its commitment to community and diversity.
Debian will always be transparent in our actions and deeds, we will not hide things even when they are unflattering to us.
Debian will employ and defend itself as needed legally from outside actors who wish harm to ourselves and our communities.

In honesty, there is not much more that we can add here. You've asked a question, we've given you the answer, we've encouraged you to research your concerns outside of tainted sources, and we've explained the discipline and expulsion process as best we could have for the rare scenario when it occurs. The intent of this thread seems to put forth a desire to try this in the court of public opinion, we've decided instead to utilize the courts of the land(s). We have said all that we are able to say about these topics and we have been upfront and honest about it, we are most confident in our providence.
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Re: What's wrong with Debian and Daniel Pocock?

#10 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

donald wrote: 2021-12-04 11:02 The intent of this thread seems to put forth a desire to try this in the court of public opinion, we've decided instead to utilize the courts of the land(s).
That's why in my 1st post I've said that the Debian Statement is "hilarious" - it's precisely what Debian did in the Appelbaum case, and this is the main problem - witch hunting instead of objective process in the court.
Nobody have sued Mr Appelbaum, what suggests that those "proofs" were insufficient or non-existing.
I understand that now Debian has a serious problem with Mr Pocock, who claims that the proofs were simply falsified.

Maybe Debian really should sue Pocock - in such case it will become clear who have defamed who, because now there is nothing besides words.

Or maybe it would be better for Debian to take a step back - I don't know, You decide.

Have a nice day.
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