Leaving systemd...

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jakoline1
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Leaving systemd...

#1 Post by jakoline1 »

I'm considering switching distros from Debian to another distro that doesn't run on systemd, maybe I will choose a distro with runit, still not sure.
Can anyone tell me what are the major most expected problems that I'm gonna face as a desktop user (not operating a server) after this transition?

Respectfully
Last edited by jakoline1 on 2021-07-29 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Bloom
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#2 Post by Bloom »

Systemd is the default for all Linux systems these days. You would need a specific distro or fork of one to have sysv. Devuan is such a fork of Debian.
I don't understand why you would want that for a desktop system.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#3 Post by kedaha »

My Debian Grub also boots FreeBSD although it's not a linux distro but rather Unix. Excellent sound system. No ALSA/pulseaudio. No systemd either. My main reason for using it in addition to Debian is not systemd but rather because I prefer the sound quality.
Expected problems?
Well, installation and configuration can be a bit tricky but excellent documentation is available here and there's also a forum.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#4 Post by steve_v »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-29 09:15Can anyone tell me what are the major most expected problems that I'm gonna face as a desktop user (not operating a server) after this transition?
If you choose one of the distros that fully supports running a non-systemd init, very few.
Some desktop environments may loose some features, for KDE/Plasma AFAIK that's limited to the firewall settings widget (though it can be patched), and probably the fancy new update whatsit that nags you on shutdown like Windows does. Neither are a big loss IMO.
GNOME is another kettle of fish, and it requires extensive patching to run without systemd. It's possible, but AFAIK Gentoo is the only distro where it's not a complete pain.

Other DEs and WMs don't care what init you run at all, and the same goes for pretty much all other desktop-oriented software...
So the real question probably isn't "what problems will I have not running systemd", it's "what problems will I have running $distro". To answer that we'd need to know what your chosen distro is.

Personally I run Gentoo with the OpenRC plasma-desktop profile as my primary machine, and it's pretty sweet. As a bonus Gentoo makes it dead-easy to patch out other irritants too... like CSD and the rest of the GTK3 brain damage.
Devuan on my server/headless boxes is also nice, but I can't speak to the desktop experience as I've never used it as such. I suggest you spin it up in a VM and find out, I have heard nothing but good things.

Then of course there's any non-Linux UNIX-like OS, such as the various BSDs. None of them run systemd and they probably never will, since systemd intentionally broke portability.


Bloom wrote: 2021-07-29 09:29Systemd is the default for all Linux systems these days.
I can think of several distros that do not run systemd by default, the most obvious independent examples being Gentoo (old and well established), Slackware (the oldest surviving distro of all), PCLinuxOS (very desktop oriented indeed), Void, Crux, and GNU GUIX.
There are also forks of Debian and Arch which don't run systemd as the default init, and a good number of Gentoo and Slackware derivatives as well...

So your statement is clearly a load of old bollocks.
If I'm going to split hairs WRT the "all Linux systems" bit, we'll be including pretty much any non-apple smartphone, and a large portion of the embedded market as well. They run also Linux, but not systemd.
Bloom wrote: 2021-07-29 09:29I don't understand why you would want that for a desktop system.
Such understanding isn't really relevant to answering the question, now is it?

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#5 Post by jakoline1 »

@steve I appreciate you trying to help me and the alternatives & information you provide, I will utilize that info, but please don't speak to people like that.

He has a point, because as far as I recall back when systemd was still a new thing I tried to escape by switching to distros that promised a systemd-free experience (Devuan and others), but that experience was awful, everything was broken for no reason.

This is my 2nd time attempting this, I hope this time I'll be more successful.
The thing is I don't want to re-learn how to use a new system, this could be a problem.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#6 Post by trinidad »

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:A ... stallation
https://web.obarun.org/

Either one of these will allow you to build the most features, and keep up with security updates, but neither one is particularly simple. Two best choices in my opinion, but definitely not for beginners. I didn't have any particular unfixable problems with Devuan and generally liked it, but honestly I like systemd.

Simpler try Slack or one of the BSDs as suggested here.

TC
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#7 Post by arzgi »

Systemd, systmed everywhere, It eats you alive, beaware!

I think the war was more religious and believes, as they usually are.

As stated, most used distros have already chosen systemd. Luckily there still are systemd-free ones.

Don't know what kind of problems did you have, but I respect your decision and wish good luck!

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#8 Post by Bulkley »

I still have this running in a VM.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=149421&p=737516&hi ... d1#p737516

It's an interesting experiment. Someday I might try it on a hard drive.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#9 Post by ticojohn »

arzgi wrote: 2021-07-29 16:04 Systemd, systmed everywhere, It eats you alive, beaware!

I think the war was more religious and believes, as they usually are.
In other words irrational.

I have yet to see a rational/logical argument for why systemd is such a bad thing. Most of the arguments I have seen are bogus and I think the whole basis for the hate is that systemd was developed by a group that everybody loves to hate (Lennart Poettering and Red Hat). Of course I am NOT a system developer, so my understanding is limited to what I read and can, at least partially, understand. Here is a link to an article authored by Lennart Poettering. Take it as you will. Personally, I think systemd offers a lot of advantages over earlier system init methods.

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html

Now I'm just waiting for the hate messages. :mrgreen:
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#10 Post by steve_v »

ticojohn wrote: 2021-07-29 18:38Now I'm just waiting for the hate messages. :mrgreen:
IOW, you're not here to answer the OPs question, rather to post propaganda from the author of your choice of init and start an argument...

The OP has clearly stated that they want to try a distro that doesn't use systemd, perhaps I missed the bit where they also asked to be convinced otherwise?

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#11 Post by ticojohn »

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-29 19:16
ticojohn wrote: 2021-07-29 18:38Now I'm just waiting for the hate messages. :mrgreen:
IOW, you're not to answer the OPs question, rather to post propaganda from the author of your choice of init and start an argument...

The OP has clearly stated that they want to try a distro that doesn't use systemd, perhaps I missed the bit where they also asked to be convinced otherwise?
You're correct. I should have stuck with the subject. I wasn't posting anything as propaganda. I apologize if it came across that way. And my author of choice is Linus Torvalds, not anyone I might have mentioned. I have been appropriately chastised. :oops:
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#12 Post by Lysander »

Adding extra hard drives [internal] is the biggest issue I have faced on a non systemd distro [Slackware].

I won't go into why, but if you're thinking of adding more hard drives, and you are not used to the persistent naming process, you will have a hell of a time doing so.

systemd just makes everything like that work instantly. My main machine runs Ubuntu and I have no intention of changing that.

The worst thing to do is to be in a situation where, for some reason, your computer has stopped working because of something you did in Linux, and you're panicking with terminal commands and forum posts trying to work out what the hell you did.

I'm not going back there.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#13 Post by steve_v »

Lysander wrote: 2021-07-30 12:48 Adding extra hard drives [internal] is the biggest issue I have faced on a non systemd distro [Slackware].

I won't go into why, but if you're thinking of adding more hard drives, and you are not used to the persistent naming process, you will have a hell of a time doing so.
Eh? Mounting additional storage hasn't changed since 1998, how hard can it be? You even get fancy /dev/disk/by-label stuff these days, that makes keeping track of which filesystem is which a snap.
TBF Slackware hasn't changed much since 1998 in general, it's the oldest surviving distro for good reason and it's tagline is "keep it simple", which it absolutely does. You put your internal storage in fstab or use autofs and co just like normal, and just as described all over the 'net since the dawn of GNU/Linux.

I actually installed Slackware 7.1 (2002) on a seriously old machine (1994) just the other day... I didn't need to hit the internet for anything whatsoever (and there's not much there for something so old anyway), all the relevant documentation, guides and tutorials are included on the CD. :D

If you're talking about the newfangled automounting stuff GUI filemanagers tend to do these days, I can't say I've had the slightest problem with that either, at least not with Gentoo/KDE. TBH I actually have no idea what systemd has to do with this anyway. Mounting stuff as a user is a polkit / dbus thing, and that's not exclusive to systemd at all.

Lysander wrote: 2021-07-30 12:48The worst thing to do is to be in a situation where, for some reason, your computer has stopped working because of something you did in Linux, and you're panicking with terminal commands and forum posts trying to work out what the hell you did.
Ahh, so by "stopped working" you mean no GUI? That's really not a not-working computer, far from it. Where there's a shell there's a way, there's manual pages and documentation, and there's even a web browser and an IRC client.

It's not like being dropped to a console is any reason to panic, and to the best of my knowledge the console is still the console, regardless of your init.

If you're suggesting that help for non-systemd installs is harder to come by, then ok, maybe... I mean you can't use the Ubuntu noob section, but Gentoo and Slackware people are generally very helpful, and there's usually someone in the IRC channels who will lend a hand on short notice if you ask your questions properly.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#14 Post by Lysander »

Steve, you're making a lot of assumptions and I don't care to discuss this, it's over. I ran Slackware problem-free [relatively] for 18 months before moving on. If you really want to see the gory details of what happened, fill your boots. I'm out :)

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#15 Post by steve_v »

Lysander wrote: 2021-07-30 15:29Steve, you're making a lot of assumptions and I don't care to discuss this, it's over.
Indeed I was, assumptions are generally what happens when you're that cagey with details. Still, having now read that thread, I still don't see what your problems with Slackware's (somewhat old and arcane TBF) bootloader/initrd have to do with running systemd or not.
If one wants systemd-style persistent naming, Gentoo has helpfully forked udev (and only udev) out as eudev. The same is present in Devuan by default.

If you just want to drop the equivalent of "You'll have problems without systemd, because It happened to me, no details" and walk away, that's your prerogative... But it sure sounds like FUD when you do it that way, and that's why I responded the way I did.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#16 Post by wizard10000 »

Just a suggestion but you can remove systemd from Debian and install sysvinit so maybe you don't have to reinstall anything? Plenty of tutorials on the web :)

Good luck -

edit: typo.
Last edited by wizard10000 on 2021-07-31 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#17 Post by tynman »

MXLinux uses SysV init.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#18 Post by golinux »

tynman wrote: 2021-07-31 05:02 MXLinux uses SysV init.
Indeed! It is included in this list of GNU/Linux distributions as well as other Free Unices using alternate init options.
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#19 Post by jakoline1 »

Just came from Void Linux IRC, what a punch of disrespectful ignorant lying pigs.

To anyone looking for a sane community where you can ask questions and have them answered stay away from Void Linux, unless you're a sick man or woman who wants to be part of a school gang and thinks you're elite because you know how to perform some basic Linux tricks.

Void Linux is a distro made only to serve those who made it, with no philosophy behind it nor direction.
Only use it if you don't have any moral standards.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#20 Post by Marie SWE »

:) a curious question... what is it with systemd you don't like so you want to leave it?
Just little curious nothing more. :)
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