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Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Choice

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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dasein
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#41 Post by dasein »

I confess that I have not followed the countless systemd threads currently running, so I apologize if someone has already mentioned this or linked to it...

Jesse Smith (of DistroWatch fame) posted some musings that I found worthwhile to read, particularly as regards the unique role of Debian in the larger systemd debate.

On the off chance that others might feel the same: http://blowingupbits.com/2014/11/though ... om-choose/

fruitofloom
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#42 Post by fruitofloom »

Very well written, but weird it took him that long to figure it out. What he says seemed clear to me after investigating the problem more deep (and it doesn't seem but *was* clear after Poettering declared to "fight" Gentoo), and i am not someone with an "official" position, or a professional writer/dev/whatever.

Still good written and worth a read,
mainly for the ones who still think "get used to systemd and call it a day, nothing has changed": Short, clear, to the point, lack of exaggerations and flaming.
If Debian’s leadership is even half awake at the helm they will realize just how many new users they can gain if they continue to offer freedom of choice where init is concerned. Choice about whether to use systemd or not is something that is quickly disappearing from the Linux community and Debian has the opportunity to be one of the few projects holding onto the philosophy of user freedom. Let us hope they choose wisely.
Let me add: gain users, but lose them too. Not too sure they are aware how many and what kind of users are really pissed. In IRC opponents of systemd are called trolls and that's about it.
surreal
Oh yes (including "apt-get dist-upgrade" not showing the installation of systemd, while apt-listbugs lists it ... backdoor like, huh?).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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buntunub
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#43 Post by buntunub »

The results of the GR vote get posted next week, I think.

I really appreciate all of you fine Debian hardcores and even some old timers who have come out of the woodwork to support the fight against the direction Debian decided to force upon us all. It is beyond a crying shame that the hallmark distro for Linux has decided to rid the world of freedom and choice by supporting Systemd. There was a serious lack of judgement shown, and the Debian leadership should kindly step down as a result. I think we should stop at nothing less. There is now a complete lack of trust between the Debian user community and the DDs, and this will not easily nor quickly be resolved. This will take time to heal, and that can only happen once Debian returns to its roots by rejecting the Systemd lockins and once more, embrace freedom and choice.

fruitofloom
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#44 Post by fruitofloom »

I agree with that.
Debian might do whatever it wants, my trust is gone.
iow: I am out, this way or the other.

"it will take time to heal"
That might well be. I can not say yet. I will reconsider in a couple of years.
Give me convenience or give me death.

twoflowers

Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#45 Post by twoflowers »

Same from my side. Trust is something hard earned and easily forfeit. Part of my desktops has already gone to BSD-land, servers will follow.

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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#46 Post by Job »

Results of the vote tomorrow 11/18. I hope those guys and gals do the right thing. We want choices. No Init system should be running any distro let alone Debian.

https://vote.debian.org/~secretary/gr_initcoupling/
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#47 Post by Job »

twoflowers wrote:Same from my side. Trust is something hard earned and easily forfeit. Part of my desktops has already gone to BSD-land, servers will follow.
I spent the whole day yesterday reading about BSDs. FreeBSD is looking really good as alternative to Debian if the vote goes the systemd way.
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#48 Post by Job »

Results

Image
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twoflowers

Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#49 Post by twoflowers »

Wellcome to FreeBSD :mrgreen: May I give you a hand?

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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#50 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

On reflection, given the options available, that is probably a pretty sensible result.

Applying a codified constraint on maintainers that "packages may NOT require a specific init system", while seemingly intended to oppose systemd, could also impair other projects, now and into the future and would, I think, actually *reduce* the "freedom" in Debian.

Discarding "further discussion" (which seems pointless), the other two options are purely recommendations, able to be overridden by the package maintainer, which is really the status quo (apart from maybe setting a tone), hence leaving "Not Required" as the obvious choice.

To see this as a vote on systemd, I think is incorrect, it seems more like a GR to tell maintainers how to do their "jobs" - which is not what Debian is about and I'm thinking it's good (for the longer term) that it wasn't adopted as such.
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#51 Post by Job »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
Applying a codified constraint on maintainers that "packages may NOT require a specific init system"
That's my main satisfaction. Too bad I will miss some Gnome apps I really like although using Awesome. I like Nautilus and gedit.
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mmix
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#52 Post by mmix »

gedit can be replaced by ged
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ged/

loc is so minimal, unlike gedit, there is small dependency.
even you can customize it.

MoaTib
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#53 Post by MoaTib »

apt-get install braindump -t unstable

Stupid changes are not synonymous of useful progress.

timbgo
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#54 Post by timbgo »

This appears twenty days old.
Any news, quick links on when Debian is deciding on it, anyone?
(only quick, really out of time)
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#55 Post by golinux »

timbgo wrote:This appears twenty days old.
Any news, quick links on when Debian is deciding on it, anyone?
(only quick, really out of time)
Where have you been? The vote was announced November 19. systemd will be the default in Jessie.
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#56 Post by edbarx »

Besides of the fact that systemd will be default for Jessie, there is yet a more serious situation, which is, the freedom of Debian developers not to support other OS initialisation systems. This implies, for instance, Gnome Debian developers can, and obviously, will tie their desktop with systemd.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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skaendo
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#57 Post by skaendo »

Is there a method for installing not using systemd?

I don't use Gnome, can't stand it myself.
And I'm not as technically saavy I suppose.

I can install Debian/KDE and all the apps I want, remove the apps I don't, and I use console for all my install/uninstall/updating etc.

Or do I have to uninstall systemd like I seen in another thread?
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#58 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

skaendo wrote:Is there a method for installing not using systemd?
Read my signature ;)
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skaendo
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#59 Post by skaendo »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Read my signature ;)
Thanks!

I also found another site:
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
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Re: Debian Is Back To Discussing Init Systems, Freedom of Ch

#60 Post by golinux »

skaendo wrote:Or do I have to uninstall systemd like I seen in another thread?
systemd is about much more than an init system or PID1 so do not limit your education to the link provided in the signature. To start take a look at the recent posts on this thread.

without-systemd is the wiki associated with the Devuan project which hopes to eventually eradicate ALL tentacles that systemd shoots into every nook and cranny of your OS. PID1 is just the tip of the iceberg.
May the FORK be with you!

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