operating systems without systemd

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edbarx
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#46 Post by edbarx »

I have just tried to install SID on a free partition to try removing systemd. The installation completed with some problems but it was completed successfully. However, when I booted the installation several daemons failed to load or reported errors. There were more than five red errors during systemd's booting sequence! After that, I replaced systemd with sysvinit in a chroot notwithstanding the DDs are becoming allergic to support chroot. Ignoring all the warnings that systemd is a core component, I typed "Do, as I say!" and proceeded. Then, I installed sysvinit, and oddly enough, this stale old initialisation package worked without the least shred of errors!

The problem with systemd is that it is still ALPHA grade software: Debian deserves far better than that!

My next move will be to upgrade the test Jessie installation to SID to conduct more experiments on the removal of systemd.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
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fruitofloom
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#47 Post by fruitofloom »

The thread was supposed to offer a list of
"operating systems without systemd"
not about discussing good or bad things about systemd
(those discussions are getting old).

Imho:
You can run Sid and Testing without systemd and libsystemd0, but it is a dirty workaround and you don't know when it will fail on you.
Right now it might work. In two weeks it might be possible no more.

That is: For people who already decided to give up on Debian GNU/*Linux*.
Hence i put it in the offtopic section.
It is related to Debian in so far as it is for people who used Debian in the past. And now are looking for better solutions.

---
In general i think a thread should take it's own course, whatever it's original intend might have been.
Just saying.
Give me convenience or give me death.

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golinux
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#48 Post by golinux »

It's easy to get all these systemd threads confused . . . ;)
May the FORK be with you!

fruitofloom
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#49 Post by fruitofloom »

Heck, i even start to complain at places where pretty much no one knows what that Linux thing is ...
(and sure not about the difference between distros, or init-systems, or such ).

So yes:
I think what edbarx tries is possible (for sure if libsystemd0 gives no worries). Probably a good idea too.
Not sure how hard it will be in the long run. Not sure if it is worth it.
Hence i decided to leave Debian. Might well be i will be back (as soon there is a serious change according to the main problem: systemd).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#50 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote: ". . . it seems the powers that be want everybody using stupid, ugly, bizarre Gnome with virusd under the hood, I'd rather take an axe to my PC first."

That has to be the "Quote of the Day". Would be a great sig.
golinux wrote:In with both feet huh?! You could tone down the formatting a bit . . . ;)
Yeah, you have a point, lol, will do. :mrgreen:
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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#51 Post by Linadian »

fruitofloom wrote:The thread was supposed to offer a list of
"operating systems without systemd"
not about discussing good or bad things about systemd
(those discussions are getting old).
I am trying to stay on topic, sorry, speaking of that, I'm seriously eyeballing Debian Wheezy kFreeBSD, same distro without the Linux drama.
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golinux
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#52 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote: . . . I'm seriously eyeballing Debian Wheezy kFreeBSD, same distro without the Linux drama.
Guess you missed this. kFreeBSD might not be around for long . . .
kFreeBSD
========

We remain gravely concerned about the viability of this port. Despite
the reduced scope, we feel that the port is not currently of sufficient
quality to feature as a fully supported release architecture in Jessie.
However, we accept that our published view of the port has not been as
'clear and unambiguous' as we would wish.

We therefore advise the kFreeBSD porters that the port is in danger of
being dropped from Jessie, and invite any porters who are able to commit
to working on the port in the long term to make themselves known *now*.
The factor that gives us greatest concern is the human resources
available to the port.

Porters of any architecture need to bear in mind that being part of a
stable release is a long commitment to both taking care of stable and
oldstable, and continuing development in sid. It has implications for
the security team, release team, DSA and other parties.

The urgency of this matter cannot be over-stated. We will assess the
viability of kFreeBSD in Jessie on or after 1st November, and a yes/no
decision will be taken at that time. This will not be a full
architecture qualification, but a simple decision on whether or not the
release team's concerns have been adequately addressed.
May the FORK be with you!

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#53 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:
Linadian wrote: . . . I'm seriously eyeballing Debian Wheezy kFreeBSD, same distro without the Linux drama.
Guess you missed this. kFreeBSD might not be around for long . . .
DAMN! There goes the wind out of that sail. :(

Looks like it's off to Gen/Funtoo, Slack/Slax/Salix land or PC-BSD. :?

Thanks for the heads up, was just about to set up my old machine on the dining-room table to do a Debian kFreeBSD test net install, might as well not bother now, at least not with the Debian disk, have a PC-BSD install disk ready and waiting. Unfortunately, PC-BSD's default desktop is KDE, which I dumped a while back for Xfce, oh well, at least I know KDE inside and out already. :?

This is depressing the $#1+ out of me. :(
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harrycaul
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#54 Post by harrycaul »

PC-BSD now offers a full selection of DEs, including Lumina.

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=117620

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#55 Post by Linadian »

harrycaul wrote:PC-BSD now offers a full selection of DEs, including Lumina.

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=117620
Thanks for that. Another reason to use PC-BSD is their kernel version is a full version better (10 as opposed to Debian's 9), it's more likely to get along with our hardware.
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fruitofloom
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#56 Post by fruitofloom »

To me the announcement about kFreeBSD only states that it will not be an official release.
In the past i didn't care if Hurd or kFreeBSD were official releases or not.
After the official release of sysdebian i sure couldn't care less what Debian releases officially
(in the past an official release granted a certain amount of quality)

Not sure what is going on with the according Gentoo ports.

Imho:
If one wants a longtime solution, then one of the BSD's is the way to go.
If one only wants to change from Debian Linux, from systemd, then it doesn't matter if one uses, example, Gentoo/Slackware, or Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. For the former the future without systemd is not granted, for the latter the mere existence is not granted at all (though, imho, it can be expected it still will be there).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#57 Post by Linadian »

fruitofloom wrote:Not sure what is going on with the according Gentoo ports.
Not good, from Distrowatch's Gentoo 20140826 package list...
• sysstat-11.0.0
• Sys-Syslog-0.330.0-r1
• system-config-printer-common-1.4.3
• system-config-printer-gnome-1.4.3-r1
• systemd-215-r3
• systemsettings-4.11.11
• sysvinit-2.88-r7
• taglib-1.9.1-r2
• taglib-extras-1.0.1
• tali-3.12.2

I think you are right, something Slack* or a *BSD is the way to go, the last bastions of sanity. Bye Debhat.
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fruitofloom
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#58 Post by fruitofloom »

Nah, gentoo's default init system is still openrc.

With ports i meant the one with hurd and the one with freebsd as a kernel. Not if you can run Gentoo without systemd (of course you can:.

Code: Select all

gentoo-laptop user # uname -r
3.14.16-gentoo
gentoo-laptop user # equery l systemd
!!! No installed packages matching 'systemd'
 * Searching for systemd ...
gentoo-laptop user # equery l openrc 
 * Searching for openrc ...
[IP-] [  ] sys-apps/openrc-0.12.4:0

)
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#59 Post by Linadian »

fleabus wrote:
harrycaul wrote:+1 for Salix Xfce here. I also like their Sourcery GUI for slapt-src.
Been using Salix myself since August or so. I had installed Slackware a few times and began exploring their documentation, then discovered Salix -- since I cut my teeth on Debian, its dependency resolution made sense. Also using the Xfce version. spi is nice, checks for both binary packages and available slackbuilds.
I just burned and am posting live from the newly released (Nov 4/14) official (not beta) Salix 14.1 Xfce Live amd64 DVD (790MB) (from this Salix forum post:"Sadly, the Xfce edition has grown in size and it can no longer fit in a single CD, so you now need a DVD if you want to burn it to an optical medium"), n neeee waaaay...it's a blast, you folks are right about Salix being a great distro with great tools, I was looking in gslapt for DVD authoring apps (DeVeDe, DVDStyler, Bombono), there was only Handbrake, I got discouraged until I opened Sourcery, what a great tool! Sourcery compiled and installed Bombono while live! The only CL I saw was the output window, lol. This live DVD is really loving my new machine (see sig), good graphics, nice and quiet (cooling fans are idling). I think I found my Debhat replacement, unfortunately it doesn't 'see' the Raid controller but who cares, I'll take one SSD out and put it in my old machine and load Salix on it too, the six (yes, six) clunky HDDs will be storage (1.5TB in the new machine and 1.2TB in the old machine). I'm tired of the virusd drama already and I'm acting now. I left Windows because of proprietary software dictatorship(s), it's a slippery slope, I hate slippery slopes, too dang slimey!

This is why I love live versions of distros, kick the tires, instead of wasting time, brain cells (what little I have left, lol) and nerves.

Check out all the panel goodies in the pic below, love those monitors!
Click on the image after it loads to go full size...
Image

I tried Mint 17 Xfce on my old machine but it just felt too buggy, bloated and 'dirty' (sys-buntu-d, two jabs with one stick, lol). Mint-buntu-d is for timid n00bs, Salix is right up my lean and mean alley, no muss, no fuss, right to the point, a clean and stable OS. :D

Edit: I like watching the Sourcery output, it's quite interesting to see how apps/packages are built, I hate the way everybody wants to hide anything CL now, that keeps the sheeples uninformed.
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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#60 Post by Linadian »

Here's another virusd free distro for your list fruitofloom, Stella, see this post for more info. It's based on CentOS 6 which is supported to 2020 and has multimedia extras, etc. :mrgreen:

:!: Edit: See the screenshot and commentary in the above mentioned post link, Stella 6.6 is going on my old machine for sure! :!: :idea: 8)
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-11-07 04:49, edited 1 time in total.
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fleabus
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#61 Post by fleabus »

From the Funtoo FAQ:
Do you support systemd?

Part of the distinctiveness of Funtoo Linux is its dependency-based OpenRC init system,
so changing this would make it something other than Funtoo Linux.
So we do not support systemd as part of Funtoo Linux.
http://www.funtoo.org/Funtoo_Linux_FAQ

Not sure If I can get up off my lazy butt enough to do fully source-based, but Funtoo sounds good,
and I will if I have to, as the next-to-the-last resort. :wink:

For those who like Gnome, they also say they "fully support running GNOME 3.12+ without depending on systemd".

So, still plenty of choice out there as far as I'm concerned. Back to my eternal reading addiction... :)

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#62 Post by dasein »

It's both interesting and informative that a small respin like Funtoo (it's what, like four guys?) can do so easily what others seemingly cannot.

Kinda shoots the whole "noooo... it'd be tooooooo burdensome!" schtick all to hell.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#63 Post by fleabus »

dasein wrote:It's both interesting and informative that a small respin like Funtoo (it's what, like four guys?) can do so easily what others seemingly cannot.

Kinda shoots the whole "noooo... it'd be tooooooo burdensome!" schtick all to hell.
Yes it does. Amidst all the screaming and caterwauling out here, there are folks just calmly taking apart a couple of things here and there, or resetting some build configs and out pops this and that, well whaddaya know. An awful lot can happen in a couple years, I think it'll be ok. Slackware and Gentoo certainly have their share of alarmist bs going on in their forums, but for the most part they seem to be taking it all in stride. Outrage at the inferior quality of our favorite new software along with the failure to learn from previous mistakes and so repeating same seem to really be the main themes of discussion. Not a coder or dev, so the details are mostly over my head, but I've been around long enough to get the gist. These feelings coincide with mine.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#64 Post by fruitofloom »

I was told in IRC that funtoo really is mainly gentoo + additional features.
If i wouldn't use them i wouldn't figure out the difference.

If don't know funtoo at all and not enough about gentoo to be able to comment on it
(the person who told me should know it, btw, his name was robbings, iirc).

One can use a prebuild kernel when using funtoo (for example the debian one).
That looks like an advantage over gentoo (though i haven't looked into genkernel yet ...).

I also looked at SystemRescue CD, but it was a pain to install it (and later to install packages). I was told it is rather a thing on it's own (though based on Gentoo, the differences seem to be bigger). Well: it is supposed to be a liveCD, init it?

Liberte Linux seems to be based on Gentoo too. I didn't look at it yet.

-
The installation process and the software management will keep the most stupid people out. I hope.
A chicken can install Debian? Indeed. And chickens are what one will find there. That was different in the past:
https://wiki.debian.org/TheFable
Oh, the irony ...
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#65 Post by Linadian »

Installing Xfce on FreeBSD 10.1rc4 right now (on my old machine), if the command line scares you or you don't have a way to search or print instructions, it's not for you. FYI,

Code: Select all

# cd <directory>
and

Code: Select all

# make install clean
work a lot better than

Code: Select all

pkg install <package>
the last one is like saying 'just stick a blob of code anywhere and don't bother to actually configure it', phht (the first method didn't even pull in xorg, wtf?!). Also, if you don't have the patience or the time to sit at the machine and hit enter [OK] at stupid questions every 10 or 20 minutes, it's really not for you (I asked for a DE to be installed, a whole phrukkin DE, you'd think the FreeBSD people would make eveything auto yes so one could walk away from the machine and have a coffee, but nooooOOOOOO). I'm plugging on with the install attempt anyway because I don't give up that easy and this 'noise' doesn't scare me, sometimes I like white-knuckling it (HDD 5 in the machine could have been trashed for all I know, FreeBSD says it's installing on the 4 HDD Raid 0, I'll have to wait for thousands of lines to scroll by before I get to find out, lol). :roll:

Edit: I must have said [OK] to something I shouldn't have a thousand [OK]s ago, I'm getting a ton of development docs and samples installed for some reason. I might sound angry but I'm actually writing this with a 'comedy of errors' humorous slant. :wink: :mrgreen: Believe it or not, I might even try the Debian kFreeBSD again, now that I got my feet wet, it would probably be a lot easier since it's supposed to use apt...I think. :?
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