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Leaving systemd...

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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steve_v
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#21 Post by steve_v »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-08-09 23:56 To anyone looking for a sane community where you can ask questions and have them answered stay away from Void Linux
Well, that's one off the list I guess.
I haven't used Void personally, so I can't speak to the state of the community. It's certainly an interesting distro from a technical point of view though, and I have heard many positive comments elsewhere.
Given the nature of the distro I suspect it attracts people with more technical skill than interpersonal, and likely little patience for new users.

TBH a musl-based system might not be the best choice for a general-use desktop anyway. Musl is very cool and all, but you'll almost certainly find things that need patching to even compile there.


On the community note, I'll plug Gentoo again. Their forums have been my go-to for technical topics since ~2004... Even when I wasn't actually running Gentoo, it's still a gold-mine for people who know their stuff. :D

Also, not my words, but rather from a recent convert:
The Gentoo community is one of the friendliest.
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#22 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-08-09 23:56 Just came from Void Linux IRC, what a punch of disrespectful ignorant lying pigs.
Maybe try the imposter channel on freenode - they might be more friendly ... ;)
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#23 Post by Hallvor »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-10 00:08 :) a curious question... what is it with systemd you don't like so you want to leave it?
Just little curious nothing more. :)
Systemd-debates have a tendency to degenerate into flamewars.

Here's something to read for a rainy day: viewtopic.php?t=116860
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#24 Post by CwF »

I was watching the big drawer of forks for years waiting to jump into Linux. My starting with serious intent after waiting for Debian Jessie was no mistake.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#25 Post by Marie SWE »

Hallvor wrote: 2021-08-10 10:09
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-10 00:08 :) a curious question... what is it with systemd you don't like so you want to leave it?
Just little curious nothing more. :)
Systemd-debates have a tendency to degenerate into flamewars.

Here's something to read for a rainy day: viewtopic.php?t=116860
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
Okaj :) That discussion seems to be a bit before I stepped in to Linux, so that's probably why I have missed it.
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#26 Post by arzgi »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-10 14:59
Okaj :) That discussion seems to be a bit before I stepped in to Linux, so that's probably why I have missed it.
Word 'discussion' is quite mild. Debate made for example Debian's systemd developer to resign.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#27 Post by Bulkley »

Hallvor wrote: 2021-08-10 10:09 Here's something to read for a rainy day: viewtopic.php?t=116860
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129881
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
Hallvor, quite aside from the subject, your third link opened with a post from dasein. His clear thinking is still refreshing. I still miss his posts.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#28 Post by Marie SWE »

arzgi wrote: 2021-08-10 15:03
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-10 14:59
Okaj :) That discussion seems to be a bit before I stepped in to Linux, so that's probably why I have missed it.
Word 'discussion' is quite mild. Debate made for example Debian's systemd developer to resign.
oh! :shock: so the word war is closer at hand then.
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#29 Post by Hallvor »

Bulkley wrote: 2021-08-10 15:41 Hallvor, quite aside from the subject, your third link opened with a post from dasein. His clear thinking is still refreshing. I still miss his posts.
Agree. Has anyone heard from him?

Edit: Somehow, I missed this thread from 2018: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137576 :cry:
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#30 Post by golinux »

Hallvor wrote: 2021-08-10 17:13 . . . Has anyone heard from him?

Edit: Somehow, I missed this thread from 2018: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137576 :cry:
The PM I mentioned in that thread remains in my outbox 3 years and some months after it was sent to him. His absence is a great loss to this community . . .
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#31 Post by invoinvo »

sysinitV was efficient and lightweight ..there are distro that continue to use runit or sysinitV.
if debian offer an alternative solution to bring back sysinitv , it will be good.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#32 Post by jakoline1 »

steve_v wrote: 2021-08-10 05:04 Given the nature of the distro I suspect it attracts people with more technical skill than interpersonal, and likely little patience for new users.
You're right, but in my case I didn't ask any technical questions, I suggested some changes to be made in the website and some information to be added to https://docs.voidlinux.org/ then they started treating me as an enemy to their cult.

They have very limited imagination, at least the ones that spoke to me.

Being on an IRC channel which is basically an instant chat helps 'em to be reckless, there should be a mailing list where a user can talk without being afraid of people showing their real-time feelings.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#33 Post by Lysander »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-10 00:08 :) a curious question... what is it with systemd you don't like so you want to leave it?
Just little curious nothing more. :)

It's probably the biggest argument in the history of Linux, be glad you missed it.

It's basically old school vs new school and the whole debate should just be consigned to the dustbin of history.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#34 Post by jakoline1 »

Lysander wrote: 2021-08-12 10:26
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-10 00:08 :) a curious question... what is it with systemd you don't like so you want to leave it?
Just little curious nothing more. :)
It's probably the biggest argument in the history of Linux, be glad you missed it.
It's basically old school vs new school and the whole debate should just be consigned to the dustbin of history.
The argument against systemd is not a meaningless frivolity.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#35 Post by steve_v »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-08-12 15:36The argument against systemd is not a meaningless frivolity.
Indeed it is not.

What it is however, is an unwise argument to revive.

You have your reasons, that's fine, leave it at that. Arguing against systemd here will only get you dogpiled or start a flamewar.
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Re: Leaving systemd...

#36 Post by millpond »

While I have absolutely zero love for systemd, over the years it has become just another added Linux annoyance. The alternatives mean leaving the Debian ecosystem, which is not something feasible for me at this time. Devuan is nice, but it gave me issues with power management.

My solution to the issue of systemd is simple: Take an axe to it.
Go through /etc/systemd and disable everything not really needed. You can do it via command line, or simply delete the entries (my favorite). They do not affect the actual executables which are under /usr.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#37 Post by s2pido »

Go through /etc/systemd and disable everything not really needed. You can do it via command line, or simply delete the entries (my favorite). They do not affect the actual executables which are under /usr.
Doing so can lead to grief. I'm stating this based on my hard-learned firsthand experience. Some programs, each time launched, will expect to find, for instance, a readable /etc/.../service file in addition to the program's config file. The expected file may seem absolutely unrelated to the program-at-hand, yet the program author or the packager may have deemed the check necessary in order to assess whether a certain service or component is present on the installed system. The absence of an expected file may cause the affected program to immediately quit, or to display a vague "something is broken, please reinstall this program's package", or cause the program to display certain controls as "grayed out" (or absent//hidden from its UI).

Those files under /etc are tiny (like, often only 1-2kb); deleting 'em provides no noticeable gained free space.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#38 Post by s2pido »

Can anyone tell me what are the major most expected problems that I'm gonna face as a desktop user
FWIW, pulseaudio (mentioned in an earlier post to this topic) is available in MX Linux, and it is also installable (or "apulse" instead) in antiX Linux. The wonderful associated GUI equalizer program (named "pulseEffects"?) was not installable in antiX a while back when I checked.

Is it a "problem" that you will be unable to install Snap packages (not native to debian, but worth mentioning) in the absence of systemd? The snapd service depends on it (directly, or indirectly, I can't recall).

On an antiX Linux system, you might not be able to successfully start the "anbox" (android) service, and may not be able to install a few services which depend, specifically, on the availability of systemd (cgmanager?) cgroups manager.

"as a desktop user"
eudev serves as a replacement to systemd-udev and I'm at a loss to recall any example problem related to my use of xwindow graphical sessions. There may be, unknown to me, a few packaged programs which expect to utilize systemd-pam (pluggable authentication module) rules but their .deb packager neglected to declare a dependency due to presuming systemd would be in use on the installed system.
this list of GNU/Linux distributions as well as other Free Unices using alternate init options.
Another place to find a reference list is the "search" page at distrowatch.com site. Choose [init: non systemd] as a search parameter.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#39 Post by NFT5 »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-29 09:15 Can anyone tell me what are the major most expected problems that I'm gonna face as a desktop user (not operating a server) after this transition?
Depends on the distribution you choose. I tried PCLOS, Devuan and MXLinux.

PCLOS wouldn't even load so DNS there.

MXLinux has a great community, always helpful. They have also developed a range of really useful utilities that make some common tasks a breeze. For me, coming from Debian, the way MX sets permissions I found quite strange. Difficult to do almost anything unless root. I'm personally not a big fan of XFCE, particularly Thunar, and while I could have persevered, there just didn't seem to be any particular benefit. For most things within the GUI, there was little difference although it took forever to boot, worse than Ubuntu.

Devuan was pretty new when I tried it but, at least on my desktops it was much faster then Debian. At the time I had around 15 desktops to admin and making a change seemed to offer no significant advantage, at least from the perspective of a desktop user where there was no real, discernable difference. From an admin point of view, sticking with a distro with a bigger base offered a lot more security for the longer term. That's not to denigrate their forum community who were more than friendly and helpful - a little more technical than MX perhaps.

Bottom line is that I don't think you'll find a big difference between Debian (with systemd) and those I've mentioned, at least from the view of a desktop user. Do what I did, download their iso, install in a VM or, as I do, in a spare partition and give them a try. Linux, in most flavours, is so flexible that you can tailor the experience to whatever you like. There are a few differences in programs to handle things like networking and sound, but easy enough to get used to them and they're the kind of differences you'd get just changing distros anyway.

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Re: Leaving systemd...

#40 Post by jakoline1 »

Thanks for the guidance, I'll test to see which distro is right for me.

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