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Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

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Marie SWE
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Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#1 Post by Marie SWE »

Hi all :D

I'm thinking of installing Linux on my server and I honestly do not know where to start.

------- Some background ------
I started with Linux desktop in March 2018 with Mint18.3 and then switched to LMDE3 around summer of 2019(as i didn't like ubuntus influences in mint 19) and now since April 2021 I started use Debian Buster and learning how it works.... so I have gone backwards to the root of the distro tree. :)

win2008R2 is now running on my server since it was almost new(secondhand 1year old when I got it). I then get 2012R2 and it was rubbish in my taste.. too win8 gui, so I went back to 2008R2.... But my server is not exposed online so EOL is not relevant anyway.
Now I'm going to upgrade all six disks to larger disks late next month... and when I have migrated my now working system to the new disks, then I am thinking of using the old ones to try to take the first step into the Linux server world... it is hotswap so easy switching back and forward for some experimenting without affecting my daily system too much
Today my server is used for PXEboot (for rescue environments/system partition recovery and installs), for network drives to my computers, to my mediacenter, and for my computers network backups.
It is not remotely manageable, so no SSH needed, only locally with it's own screen and keyboard for increased security.
My Cisco firewall is managing the DHCP service and redirect traffic to my server for pxeboot. (in the future it will be replace with a pfSence firewall)
It's a HP server intel based. two Xenon CPUs, 64GB ECC ram, six disks Hotswap SAS 3.5" 4TB Raid5(hardware raid)

My idea in 2019 was to run centOS as it was good for +10 years/installation. but IBM sabotaged the centOS life-cycle so it is no longer an option.
Since I have had Debian based distros since 2018, maybe Debian server is the best soft way start into the server world?? and I think my knowledge is starting to mature enough for this step. The keyword in that sentence is "I think"... I don't know.. it's a little scary step :?

I've never in my entire life touched a Linux server. and my Linux knowledge is limited as you have probably seen here on the forum. :)
My big, big Linux weakness and Achilles heel is....that I am really good at windows. :oops:
I started with computers 1987 with MS-Dos.. then all windows from 3.11 up to win8.1... I refuse win10 and newer.
I am certified for XP and win7.... I'm not certified for win2003server and win2008server.. I have only learned those two for my own needs.. But windows is windows since win2000 up to win11 server or not..
This makes me spoiled, really spoiled with many different win-tools that are 99.9% GUI based. it has created many bad habits and workflows and it's thousands of companies developing various GUI-tools for just about everything for windows environments.. So Microsoft has made me GUI lazy and spoiled like a child, so I'm not getting along with terminal commands and it's monochrome environment.
So this for me, makes some things completely backwards way of thinking for troubleshooting and solutions when it comes to, get in to how Linux works.. and it bothers me.. big time.. it bothers me a lot. :oops:

But I am trying my way forward slow but steady even in to the deep end of the pool. :mrgreen:

---------

:D So...with that said :D
I will have some questions mixed with thoughts now during the colder months, when it's more time to sit inside at the computers....
And you all are more than welcome to bring up your own suggestions and opinions and thoughts on things.. :mrgreen:

It will become a slow thread, as I'm not so often can sit for longer periods of time at the computer for testing and learning things.

My first question is..... Is there any specific Debian ISO for server installs?
Windows-server has a lot of server tools and services built in.. Does Debian server environment have that too?
And what do you think I should start with?

and do not forget that my english is not the best one and I have mild dyslexia... So have a little oversight with my use of the language and typos and wrong words i sometimes chooses.. browser spellchecking can't do magic all of the times :P
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#2 Post by NFT5 »

Your English is fine. Sure, it's obvious that it's not your first language, but I've never had any problem reading or understanding your posts.

Will Debian do the job that you describe? Of course, and you can use the GUI or CLI interface.

Although I'd been using Linux previously when I made the decision to move to Debian in my business (15 PCs) I moved cautiously. Initially I set up dual booting on a number of machines so that, if Debian failed we could always drop back to Windows. That never happened and the users embraced the new OS almost immediately. After a while it was no longer necessary to keep Windows, except for a couple of machines where it ran in Virtual Machines for proprietary software.

However, I've stuck with the cautious approach and every machine still has dual boot, now just Debian Stable and Debian Oldstable. If something goes wrong with the new installation I know I still have a working OS on that machine. Especially important for my server, which does a lot more than yours.

For my server I use the netinstall with firmware iso and then select server choices and a light DE like MATE. Like yours, it does have its own screen and keyboard. From the basic installation I then just install, using Synaptic or apt, specific software that I need. I realise that I'm wasting some space with the GUI but I have 20TB on that machine so I don't really care.

Consider taking the same approach. Dual boot Windows and Debian until you're confident with running just Debian.

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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#3 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-23 01:23 My first question is..... Is there any specific Debian ISO for server installs?
Windows-server has a lot of server tools and services built in.. Does Debian server environment have that too?
No, there is just Debian - the same as you have installed on your PC.
You can install and configure whatever servers you need.
And what do you think I should start with?
Seems you are only doing PXE and SMB, so take your pick.
Maybe try on your PC first before clobbering your server.
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#4 Post by Marie SWE »

NFT5 wrote: 2021-08-23 03:29 Your English is fine. Sure, it's obvious that it's not your first language, but I've never had any problem reading or understanding your posts.

Will Debian do the job that you describe? Of course, and you can use the GUI or CLI interface.

Although I'd been using Linux previously when I made the decision to move to Debian in my business (15 PCs) I moved cautiously. Initially I set up dual booting on a number of machines so that, if Debian failed we could always drop back to Windows. That never happened and the users embraced the new OS almost immediately. After a while it was no longer necessary to keep Windows, except for a couple of machines where it ran in Virtual Machines for proprietary software.

However, I've stuck with the cautious approach and every machine still has dual boot, now just Debian Stable and Debian Oldstable. If something goes wrong with the new installation I know I still have a working OS on that machine. Especially important for my server, which does a lot more than yours.

For my server I use the netinstall with firmware iso and then select server choices and a light DE like MATE. Like yours, it does have its own screen and keyboard. From the basic installation I then just install, using Synaptic or apt, specific software that I need. I realise that I'm wasting some space with the GUI but I have 20TB on that machine so I don't really care.

Consider taking the same approach. Dual boot Windows and Debian until you're confident with running just Debian.
Thanks :mrgreen: If anything is unclear just ask.

I am totally GUI ruined by MS and will probably be that for years to come... so I'm going to avoid the CLI environment as much as possible :oops: Don't tell anyone a did say that :innocent:
But when CLI is only option, of course I will use it to solve things.

Thanks for the tip of netinstall. I will try that.
so true, with or without DE is not much difference in disk space... and with DE local management is also easier for beginners as me :mrgreen:

I have from dualboot up to quadboot on all my computers... it's always good to have a fallbackOS if one system crashes.. or if you are stuck with MS-software.. just boot in to win, fix it and boot back to linux..
But dualboot on a server? :thinking: is that really a good thing to do?
How have you solved unplanned reboots(power-outs, or other hiccups that can occurs).. is it just as dualboot desktops.. first boot option and timer countdown? And if first fails, will it boot in to next automatically?

First I will try an install when I upgrade my disks.. just to see so all drivers works and how hotswap working in Linux... and I will let that install stay on the old disks as starting point.. it's only 20sec to just swap disks when I need to test things on bare metal that way
After I see that install works on my hardware, I probably will create a Debian VM install to experiment with PXE and SMB services.. and in the future when I start to understand it, I then change discs and test to implement it on bare metal..
What do you think of that approach? . . good or really bad idea
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#5 Post by Marie SWE »

dilberts_left_nut wrote: 2021-08-23 07:34
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-08-23 01:23 My first question is..... Is there any specific Debian ISO for server installs?
Windows-server has a lot of server tools and services built in.. Does Debian server environment have that too?
No, there is just Debian - the same as you have installed on your PC.
You can install and configure whatever servers you need.
And what do you think I should start with?
Seems you are only doing PXE and SMB, so take your pick.
Maybe try on your PC first before clobbering your server.
Thanks for your input. :mrgreen:
I will try a installation first on the old disks just to see how the hardware works with Debian.
But I will probably test how the others thing works in a VM or on my old lab computer, I have to try new things or just dumb ideas I get some times. :oops: :lol:
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
You only have one life, so make the most of it and enjoy it while you can.

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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#6 Post by steve_v »

IMO a local GUI of any kind on a server kinda runs contrary to the purpose.
Servers generally go in a server rack, cabinet, basement or other out of the way place so they can be as noisy as they want, and nothing needs to connect to them but power and network.

Every additional piece of software installed is added complexity and attack surface, doubly so if that software is X11 (read up on the X11 security model if you don't believe me).
Since a well-configured server should be hands-off almost all of the time, installing a whole desktop that you'll use maybe twice a year is just a waste of time, and it can be a source of drama when it comes to dist-upgrades.

Personally I use SSH for normal maintenance, and IPMI for installation / recovery / access to BIOS and bootloader. A small portable monitor is of course an option if one doesn't have IPMI, just lug it over and plug it in when you need it, since you won't need it often.

As for using Debian for the purpose, it's a fine choice. Just do a bare-bones netinstall, then add the services you need. No bloat, no mess, no drama.
If you run with unattended-upgrades and use cron and email notifications properly, you'll almost never need to touch it.
Last edited by steve_v on 2021-09-06 00:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#7 Post by Marie SWE »

Another thing that came up in another thread. LVM https://wiki.debian.org/LVM I only looked at this page for two seconds I don't have the time to read everything today.. and this was not available for win server 2008R2 :thinking:
as I will use hardware raid, what is the best to set up the installation and which file system do you think is best?
System I will use Raid1 two disks then for all other data i will use Raid5 four disks.
I have heard that Sun's ZFS is available for Linux now and that it is the most secure file system for secure storage .. Thoughts?
Linux is hard compere what I am used to :)
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You only have one life, so make the most of it and enjoy it while you can.

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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#8 Post by steve_v »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:08I will use hardware raid
I wouldn't. Hardware RAID (by which I mean an actual RAID coprocessor, not BIOS fakeraid) is rarely beneficial unless you are really strapped for CPU resources or need advanced battery-backed caching.
In almost all small installations Linux software RAID is faster, more flexible, and easier to recover if something goes horribly wrong. If you already have a decent hardware RAID card by all means use it, but unless it's very fancy indeed you'll probably get better performance running it as a dumb HBA with software RAID (or ZFS) on to.
The BIOS fakeraid shipped on consumer motherboards is the worst of both worlds, not only is your array tied to the hardware as with a real RAID card, it's unaccelerated and uses the host CPU for parity. The only scenario where I would use it is if you need to dual-boot Windows for some reason.
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:08which file system do you think is best?
For general use I'd go with good old reliable ext4, on top of mdraid and (optional) LVM. For bulk storage I use ZFS RAIDZ6.
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:08I have heard that Sun's ZFS is available for Linux now and that it is the most secure file system for secure storage .. Thoughts?
ZFS is the godzilla of filesystems, it includes built-in RAID-like functionality, as well as pretty much every feature you could ever want.
The only real downside is the overhead, it requires large amounts of system memory for reasonable performance and it really likes IOPS, which makes it comparatively slow on consumer-grade hardware and disks. You also want a board that supports ECC memory, otherwise you sacrifice much of the touted reliability and bitrot-resistance.

Personally I run a ZFS fileserver at home, on some old Supermicro hardware I got cheap on ebay.
2x E5-2665, 64GB RAM, 8x4TB spinners + 2x120GB SSDs (cache etc.) for the main storage pool, plus a RAID10 of 4x250GB SSDs for the OS and a few other things like databases and whatnot. It's nice. :)
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:08Linux is hard compere what I am used to :)
Windows is hard (and limited) compared to what I am used to. :P
Last edited by steve_v on 2021-09-06 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#9 Post by Marie SWE »

steve_v wrote: 2021-09-06 00:06 IMO a local GUI of any kind on a server kinda runs contrary to the purpose.
Servers generally go in a server rack, cabinet, basement or other out of the way place so they can be as noisy as they want, and nothing needs to connect to them but power and network.

Every additional piece of software installed is added complexity and attack surface, doubly so if that software is X11 (read up on the X11 security model if you don't believe me).
Since a well-configured server should be hands-off almost all of the time, installing a whole desktop that you'll use maybe twice a year is just a waste of time, and it can be a source of drama when it comes to dist-upgrades.

Personally I use SSH for normal maintenance, and IPMI for installation / recovery / access to BIOS and bootloader. A small portable monitor is of course an option if one doesn't have IPMI, just lug it over and plug it in when you need it, since you won't need it often.

As for using Debian for the purpose, it's a fine choice. Just do a bare-bones netinstall, then add the services you need. No bloat, no mess, no drama.
If you run with unattended-upgrades and use cron and email notifications properly, you'll almost never need to touch it.
Thanks you for your opinion and thoughts. :D
It is a Proliant tower server I have in a small closet next to my home office/computer room and I have it connected through my KVMswitch which some of my other computers are connected to. So local direct access is more secure and easier than SSH as I can use the graphical interfaces instead of CLI
I'm used to sit at the server since years back when I do updates(I always make manual updates if something goes wrong. I'm poisoned by windows) adding things and when i do my backups I still have to connect external drives.
Do you have a good link I can read about X11? it sounds interesting. :)
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#10 Post by steve_v »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:46 I'm used to sit at the server since years back when I do updates(I always make manual updates if something goes wrong. I'm poisoned by windows)
Yeah, I'd sure supervise a Windows server for updates too. Windows updates break stuff all the time. :P

That's much of my point about not installing unnecessary software, if you keep to a barebones CLI install (and also disable apt's tendency to install "recommended" software) there's less to update and less to go wrong.
Unattended-upgrades will mail you if manual intervention is required, and it'll even tell you when the system will reboot (for upgrades that require it) and postpone such if there are users still logged in. All configurable of course.
In the ~10 years I've had this Debian (now Devuan actually) home-server install, I have needed to manually intervene in a routine update maybe 4 or 5 times (not counting updating config files), and I got plenty of notice about it. I supervise dist-upgrades of course, but I've yet to have one go wrong, even working over SSH.

I actually used to have it on a KVM, but I unplugged it years ago since I never actually needed to use it. :)
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:46when i do my backups I still have to connect external drives.
Hotswap bays and udev rules FTW ;)
I plug the drive, udev launches the backup script when it sees it, the script mails me when the job is done and I can go pull the drive again. Should work for USB devices similarly.
Ed. Hmm, I could actually get it to flash one of the LEDs in a set pattern or something when it's done too... interesting.
I never figured out how to do this kind of thing in Windows, and it annoyed the hell out of me.
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-06 00:46Do you have a good link I can read about X11? it sounds interesting.
Not off the top of my head, but google will sort that out without too much digging. The gist of the matter is that the protocols were invented in the late '70s (with a '70s view of security, where clients are implicitly trusted), and there's a whole lot of fossilised redundant garbage and hacks on top of hacks in there. Wayland is supposed to replace it one day, but it's kinda not cooked yet.

Besides usually running as root and lacking sane application sandboxing (any app can pretty much keylog or screenshot any other), local X11 itself isn't too bad... At least not for my definition of "bad". Don't use it's network features though, they're awesome, but they're no longer fit for purpose security-wise. If you must use them, at least tunnel over SSH.
Installing a full GUI will also pull in a whole host of random libraries and other cruft of course, and generally speaking those get nowhere near the auditing attention as things designed for servers. More attack surface and all that.
IMO the fewer things installed on a server, particularly an internet-facing one, the better. Fewer bugs and security advisories to deal with, fewer headaches, and smoother updates.
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Re: Considering installing Linux on my server.... Now running win2008R2

#11 Post by NFT5 »

Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-05 23:26 How have you solved unplanned reboots(power-outs, or other hiccups that can occurs).. is it just as dualboot desktops.. first boot option and timer countdown? And if first fails, will it boot in to next automatically?
At the moment I restart manually but, in the past I've just set it to start on the defaults. I do updates manually so I know that it will work.
Marie SWE wrote: 2021-09-05 23:26 I probably will create a Debian VM install to experiment with PXE and SMB services.. and in the future when I start to understand it, I then change discs and test to implement it on bare metal..
What do you think of that approach? . . good or really bad idea
Definitely a good idea. If you make a mistake then it's really easy to start again.

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