Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230
Pure Wayland anyone?
Pure Wayland anyone?
Anyone just running Wayland and not X? I'm talking about running Wayland with no Xorg on the system, and no xwayland.
Currently, I have this installed:
sway window manager (a Wayland version of i3)
firefox (which can be run under pure Wayland)
mpv (to play videos)
aria2 (cli torrent)
foot (terminal)
iwd (internet)
I'm quite new to this experience, so I'd like to know what other people are doing with it and what one can run on it.
Currently, I have this installed:
sway window manager (a Wayland version of i3)
firefox (which can be run under pure Wayland)
mpv (to play videos)
aria2 (cli torrent)
foot (terminal)
iwd (internet)
I'm quite new to this experience, so I'd like to know what other people are doing with it and what one can run on it.
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I'm planning on migrating soon.
Current showstoppers for me:
Gimp still being compiled with GTK2 plus some custom scripts using X tools for pasting into the clipboard.
Other than that, I'm good to go. It's probably going to be Sway.
Pitty the Waybox window manager is still early days. I'd love to continue using Openbox.
Current showstoppers for me:
Gimp still being compiled with GTK2 plus some custom scripts using X tools for pasting into the clipboard.
Other than that, I'm good to go. It's probably going to be Sway.
Pitty the Waybox window manager is still early days. I'd love to continue using Openbox.
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
One good thing is that I think almost all the new gnome apps are compatible with wayland.canci wrote: ↑2021-11-30 11:28 I'm planning on migrating soon.
Current showstoppers for me:
Gimp still being compiled with GTK2 plus some custom scripts using X tools for pasting into the clipboard.
Other than that, I'm good to go. It's probably going to be Sway.
Pitty the Waybox window manager is still early days. I'd love to continue using Openbox.
If anyone knows of a decent, simple, pic viewing app, such as feh, which can be used under wayland, that would be cool.
...
*** EDIT ***
Found a wayland image program:
Code: Select all
apt install imv
Code: Select all
$ imv-wayland /mypicdir/*
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
Thanks for the tip for imv.
So, I've made the plunge a couple of weeks ago. I'm really pleasently surprised! sway is rock solid. It's a much different experience than using Gnome on Wayland. It's basically i3 with a few differences. I've also removed xwayland in order to easily spot all the GUI stuff that I had to change.
Some notes:
So, I've made the plunge a couple of weeks ago. I'm really pleasently surprised! sway is rock solid. It's a much different experience than using Gnome on Wayland. It's basically i3 with a few differences. I've also removed xwayland in order to easily spot all the GUI stuff that I had to change.
Some notes:
- I've had this annoying bug where playing Youtube on mpv would crash the entire X Server. That's gone now! I can finally watch online streams again without using a browser. Videos never drop frames or cause screen tearing and there isn't this milliseconds long freeze when going fullscreen in a video.
- Everything that's written in Qt5 will just work with Wayland as long as qtwayland5 is installed
- Surprisingly, some GTK3 apps won't work. For instance, some of those written for the Mate desktop.
- I don't have a decent run dialogue any more. dmenu uses Xwayland, which I want to avoid and wofi just isn't as good as rofi. Any tips there?
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I found a couple of bugs in i3. One is that I cannot set up mouse clicks to run commands, such as WIN+<left mouse click> to close a window. Another bug is with firefox menus flickering. This bug has been around for about a year, so I'm not holding my breath.So, I've made the plunge a couple of weeks ago. I'm really pleasently surprised! sway is rock solid. It's a much different experience than using Gnome on Wayland. It's basically i3 with a few differences. I've also removed xwayland in order to easily spot all the GUI stuff that I had to change.
I'm on bullseye, and my mpv player will not play youtube videos with yt-dlp. Apparently, the version of mpv is too old. Tried installing via backports, but that didn't help either as the version is still not recent enough.I've had this annoying bug where playing Youtube on mpv would crash the entire X Server. That's gone now! I can finally watch online streams again without using a browser. Videos never drop frames or cause screen tearing and there isn't this milliseconds long freeze when going fullscreen in a video.
Wofi doesn't seem to have all the options, but I find it works well enough for me for now. Maybe you can submit a feature request?I don't have a decent run dialogue any more. dmenu uses Xwayland, which I want to avoid and wofi just isn't as good as rofi. Any tips there?
Anyways, I'm still using pure wayland as it offers me just what I need. Also, you can do screen recording with wf-recorder.
-
- df -h | grep > 20TiB
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
- Location: /dev/chair
- Has thanked: 79 times
- Been thanked: 189 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I haven't tried it on Debian, but I did try switching my Gentoo (plasma 5.23.4) desktop over to pure wayland just last week...
It's still a mess, even on the bleeding edge.
Session restore doesn't work.
Window management glitches and rendering problems all over the place.
Applications that need to manipulate their own window state (e.g "request attention" or raise themselves from minimized on an event) can't. Likewise when one app wants to activate another.
Support for Nvidia drivers is still borked in too many ways to list.
Font management doesn't work.
Gamma controls don't work.
Drag-and-drop (and in many cases the clipboard as well) is a complete garbage fire.
That's just what I noticed in the first 10 minutes trying to use it, but the real showstopper is that ~60% of the applications I use regularly don't work at all on pure wayland, and some of them don't work properly even with xwayland.
I'm sure this thing is fun for the early-adopters, but trying to get any real work done on a wayland desktop is still a complete joke. It's taken 10 years to go from vaporware to tinkerers toy, so maybe wake me up in another decade when we get to "widely supported".
It's still a mess, even on the bleeding edge.
Session restore doesn't work.
Window management glitches and rendering problems all over the place.
Applications that need to manipulate their own window state (e.g "request attention" or raise themselves from minimized on an event) can't. Likewise when one app wants to activate another.
Support for Nvidia drivers is still borked in too many ways to list.
Font management doesn't work.
Gamma controls don't work.
Drag-and-drop (and in many cases the clipboard as well) is a complete garbage fire.
That's just what I noticed in the first 10 minutes trying to use it, but the real showstopper is that ~60% of the applications I use regularly don't work at all on pure wayland, and some of them don't work properly even with xwayland.
I'm sure this thing is fun for the early-adopters, but trying to get any real work done on a wayland desktop is still a complete joke. It's taken 10 years to go from vaporware to tinkerers toy, so maybe wake me up in another decade when we get to "widely supported".
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
>tinkerers toy
Wayland isn't a tinkerer's toy just because KDE hasn't implemented their stuff properly yet. Same goes for all the programmes that haven't moved to standard GTK3 or Qt5 without obscure direct ties to Xorg.
It really depends what workflow you have, but I guess a lot of people will have a similarly hard time like you, because popular tools like Gimp still use gtk2 or they might be proprietary stuff that depends on deprecated Ubuntu stuff like libappindicator or some similar stuff. A similar problem exists for Gaming where a lot of tools like Wine still are written with Xorg in mind.That's more a symptom of general lack of focus or resources in free software. If you use sway or more recent versions of Gnome, the experience is much different than with KDE.
Wayland isn't a tinkerer's toy just because KDE hasn't implemented their stuff properly yet. Same goes for all the programmes that haven't moved to standard GTK3 or Qt5 without obscure direct ties to Xorg.
It really depends what workflow you have, but I guess a lot of people will have a similarly hard time like you, because popular tools like Gimp still use gtk2 or they might be proprietary stuff that depends on deprecated Ubuntu stuff like libappindicator or some similar stuff. A similar problem exists for Gaming where a lot of tools like Wine still are written with Xorg in mind.That's more a symptom of general lack of focus or resources in free software. If you use sway or more recent versions of Gnome, the experience is much different than with KDE.
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
-
- df -h | grep > 20TiB
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
- Location: /dev/chair
- Has thanked: 79 times
- Been thanked: 189 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
Sure, you're absolutely correct, in a technical sense. From a practical "I need to do work with my PC" point of view though they're pretty much the same thing. Doubly so if you don't like or don't use GNOME.
Whatever it's technical merits, a platform that can't run the software you need isn't very useful. Wayland can't run a bunch of software I need, so for my use case (and I doubt it's a particularly unusual one), wayland is still a toy, not a tool.
I can't comment on sway, but I absolutely agree about recent GNOME versions... the experience is far, far more unpleasant than even the most broken KDE install.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
No, you said a statement about Wayland that's factually incorrect and which potentially gives people the wrong idea about it. You're welcome to conflate apples and oranges because you feel left out, but a more practical approach would be to name the fact that KDE just didn't get around to implement Wayland yet or that favourite app foo still uses gtk2 or some 1980s Xorg bitrot. For you, Wayland isn't there yet, but I can get work done in it. There's a huge difference in Wayland doesn't do x vs KDE doesn't do x.
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
-
- df -h | grep > 20TiB
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
- Location: /dev/chair
- Has thanked: 79 times
- Been thanked: 189 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
Well, It's exactly the same idea anyone trying to use any one of a still embarrassingly long list of software on wayland will undoubtedly form quite independently.
I am fully aware it's not waylands fault, but that doesn't change the end-user experience any more than "WONTFIX, blame nvidia" has improved GNU/Linux hardware compatibility over the years.
I'm into practical solutions to real problems, not attributing blame. Right now the solution to running several extremely popular software packages is "use X11, or use xwayland (may contain traces of jank)".
I don't feel left out, not at all. You can keep your 20 or so applications that work properly on native wayland, and I'll keep trying it out every couple of years to see if the situation has improved.
It would be, except that when we're talking about "pure wayland", without xwayland, (as per the OP) I'd have to name-drop something like 80% of all the GUI applications in the repos. I really don't have that level of motivation, and wearing a hair shirt so itchy it excludes the vast majority of available software is pretty impractical if your workflow extends beyond a web browser and a video player.
Much as it pains me to say it, one of the reasons Microsoft Windows has been so incredibly successful is it's outstanding backwards compatibility. Applications written 20 years ago will run with minimal changes (and often none at all) on bleeding-edge Windows...
But GNU/Linux? Not so much. GNU/Linux with "pure" wayland? Yeah, good luck.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
>I'm into practical solutions to real problems
Not sure how practical a solution like blaming Wayland for the work KDE hasn't done is supposed to be. A more practical approach would be installing KDE Neon and bug reporting Wayland-related stuff once a week.
I understand that it's frustrating, but I also think you're being a bit dramatic with the 80%. I'm wondering where you get that number from.
Also, you have backward compatibility. Xorg is still maintained and works mostly OK. xwayland isn't perfect, but it works unless you need low level stuff.
Not sure how practical a solution like blaming Wayland for the work KDE hasn't done is supposed to be. A more practical approach would be installing KDE Neon and bug reporting Wayland-related stuff once a week.
I understand that it's frustrating, but I also think you're being a bit dramatic with the 80%. I'm wondering where you get that number from.
Also, you have backward compatibility. Xorg is still maintained and works mostly OK. xwayland isn't perfect, but it works unless you need low level stuff.
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
-
- df -h | grep > 20TiB
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
- Location: /dev/chair
- Has thanked: 79 times
- Been thanked: 189 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I'm not blaming anyone, I'm describing the current situation WRT native wayland support, and the practicality of running a pure wayland environment.
Outside the GNOME/Redhat ecosystem or running a bare WM and some carefully selected software, that situation is still a buggy, incompatible mess.
Ahem:
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
OK. We can agree on that.
With Xorg, I was talking about backwards compatibility - both in the sense of running Xwayland or foregoing Wayland for the time being.
With Xorg, I was talking about backwards compatibility - both in the sense of running Xwayland or foregoing Wayland for the time being.
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I'm going to guess that this is a big part of why applications aren't working for you. Unfortunately, Nvidia sucks with Wayland at this moment.
...
But you guys remember the switch from 32bit to 64bit? Remember how buggy 64 bit was, and now 64 bit is almost all we use. After a certain threshold, I believe Wayland will just take off.
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I sort of want to try KDE on pure Wayland now
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
-
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 2021-07-22 01:59
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
I'll go with sway, bar : yambar or sfwbar. To manage opened windows, there is swayr, really great for floating windows.
- argentwolf
- Posts: 201
- Joined: 2021-09-05 23:21
- Has thanked: 185 times
- Been thanked: 15 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
The watermark for me will be when Xfce 4.18 is released in Debian's stable...
Vanguard Debian, because nothing's worse than doing nothing, whimsically!
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
Thanks, I didn't even know Xfce is already on it. 4.18 might be done for Debian 12.argentwolf wrote: ↑2022-01-03 13:42 The watermark for me will be when Xfce 4.18 is released in Debian's stable...
https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
- argentwolf
- Posts: 201
- Joined: 2021-09-05 23:21
- Has thanked: 185 times
- Been thanked: 15 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
Huh! If I was a betting man, I'd put my money down on the divine magic number, Debian v13. 4+1+8=13 Wha?
Vanguard Debian, because nothing's worse than doing nothing, whimsically!
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
- canci
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: 2006-09-24 11:28
- Has thanked: 136 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Pure Wayland anyone?
Haha! I'd prefer it to be ready for Debian 12 though.
Stable / Asus VivoBook X421DA / AMD Ryzen 7 3700U / Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx (Picasso) / 8 GB RAM / 512GB NVMe
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources
READ THIS:
* How to Post a Thread Here
* Other Tips and Great Resources