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Debian sid vs stable

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fch
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Debian sid vs stable

#1 Post by fch »

I came to debian a few weeks ago, from a friend recommendation, he is also a debian contributor. Knowing that I was a arch and manjaro user, he recommended me to use debian sid in order to have the latest and most updated software. But having bullseye now, after using 10 for a few weeks few so stable and symple, I am still getting the idea and philosophy of debian and it feel that it misses the point of using debian going to sid unless I am really a tester. Will I be not secure using debian stable in comparison to sid in regards to software updates, like keepass and other software that require the latest security updates? I am yet very igorant about debian, but loving the experience, especially because I am also running mobian on my phone. Thanks for the great work of this great OS.

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#2 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Stable gets the fastest security updates from the Debian Security team.
Sid only gets updates as new packages enter from upstream.
Testing only gets updates after they migrate from Sid.
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#3 Post by WhyDub »

Debian stable is great if you need stability because you do important work on your computer. you don't have to be scary of sid, it's not as messy as you think it can be. you just have to be aware of your update cause sometime it can go wrong. I use sid since 3 year whit no problem at all under KDE. sometime a break the system but it's only because I'm not watching closely when I upgrade some package. if you don't do serious work go to sid without hesitate. it's my opinion. and im not an advanced user by the way.

when you go to sid add to your source.list testing and stable and pinpoint the priority in /etc/apt/preferences.conf. So you can have some package from testing or stable if you wish.
Also you will have to intall apt-listbug and apt list-changes in sid, it will help you whit buggy upgrade.

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cat /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free
#deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free

deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
#deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free

deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stable main contrib non-free
#deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stable main contrib non-free

deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security testing-security main contrib non-free

#deb [check-valid-until=no] https://snapshot.debian.org/archive/debian/20210917T030649Z/ unstable main contrib non-free

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/etc/apt/preferences.d$ cat 99pin-unstable 
Package: *
Pin: release a=testing
Pin-Priority: 100

Package: *
Pin release a=unstable
Pin-Priority: 1000

Package: *
Pin release a=stable
Pin-Priority: 1

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#4 Post by sunrat »

WhyDub wrote: 2021-10-01 23:45when you go to sid add to your source.list testing and stable and pinpoint the priority in /etc/apt/preferences.conf. So you can have some package from testing or stable if you wish.
Bad advice. I advise against testing and stable sources in unstable, it's either pointless or dangerous. https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
I ran Sid for over 12 years but eventually got sick of eternal upgrades of hundreds of packages every week. It's exciting to follow development like that but it will break sometimes. Now Bullseye is much more advanced than Stable was 12 years ago so I'm sticking with it in future, loving having only a handful of upgrades per month, and zero breakage so far since February.
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#5 Post by WhyDub »

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Bad advice. I advise against testing and stable sources in unstable, it's either pointless or dangerous. https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
what may be true for debian stable is not for unstable. sometime if you want to downgrade a package and its dependency the time a bug is fixed or if you want a more stable version of particular package you can do it in unstable you just have to pinpoint apt to upgrade from unstable except for a particular package from testing and stable if need be.

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#6 Post by sunrat »

WhyDub wrote: 2021-10-03 22:57

Code: Select all

Bad advice. I advise against testing and stable sources in unstable, it's either pointless or dangerous. https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
what may be true for debian stable is not for unstable.
That's true so "dangerous" it may not necessarily be. As I said, I ran Sid for over 12 years and never had any Debian repos other than sid and never needed them, so I consider it pointless. I do understand what you are saying though and you are free to manage your system however you want.
Most important in Sid is to review upgrades before applying and abort if it threatens to remove lots of packages. Usually resolves in hours or days.

BTW, there are QUOTE tags for quotes rather than CODE tags which are for code. :wink:
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#7 Post by craigevil »

Do NOT mix releases.
If you run stable, you can use Backports.
if you run Testing, you can probably get away with installing one or two packages from Unstable.

Debian Stable Bullseye repos:

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# Bullseye https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/arm64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Security https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/arm64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#security-archive
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Updates https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBullseye#FAQ 
# https://wiki.debian.org/StableUpdates All packages from stable-updates will be included in point releases.
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Backports  https://backports.debian.org/
# Backports are _not_ enabled by default.
# Enable them by uncommenting the following line:
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-backports main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-backports main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Proposed Updates https://wiki.debian.org/StableProposedUpdates
# Stable-proposed-updates is an apt repository that contains the files that are being prepared for the next Debian/Stable point release.
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-proposed-updates main contrib non-free 
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-proposed-updates main contrib non-free
if you run Debian Sid/Unstable: (My current sources.list)

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# Unstable See: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUnstable
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free

# Unstable-Debug  https://wiki.debian.org/HowToGetABacktrace
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-debug/ unstable-debug main contrib non-free

# Experimental See: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianExperimental
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian experimental main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian experimental main contrib non-free

# Experimental-Debug https://wiki.debian.org/AutomaticDebugPackages
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-debug/ experimental-debug main contrib non-free

# Incoming https://incoming.debian.org/
deb https://incoming.debian.org/debian-buildd buildd-unstable main contrib non-free
If you run Testing you really only need:

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# Testing (Bookworm) 
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
One last comment, if you run Testing or Sid make sure you have apt-listbugs and apt-listchanges installed, and PAY Attention to what both output. Also pay attention to what gets installed/upgraded or what gets removed.
If and when it breaks you get to keep all the broken pieces.
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#8 Post by stevepusser »

If you run Testing you really only need:

# Testing (Bookworm)
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
I would advise uncommenting line 2, though. :lol:
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#9 Post by kedaha »

Both sid and testing are developmental stages in the ongoing cycle to bring out successive stable releases. They are not "upgrades" from the stable distribution to get shiny new software. Of course, experienced and knowledgeable users might prefer them but for others, "upgrading" to Bookworm would be like moving into an unfinished house which is to undergo extensive renovation over the next two years; one day, for example, the plumbing might suddenly stop working and you can't flush the john. And using sid I might liken to living in the warehouse itself which supplies all the replacements for the unfinished house.
I have always run stable and I start tracking testing about six months before it gets released as the new stable.
For those interested in development I'd recommend running testing and/or sid in QEMU rather than as alternatives to stable.
My point of view is that I regard stable as the ultimate upgrade; it is a towering achievement.
DebianStable

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$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

cynwulf

Re: Debian sid vs stable

#10 Post by cynwulf »

I ran mixed testing/unstable for a few years as well as stable and found that though it can be a learning experience, it actually teaches you a lot about a package manager...

Mixing testing and unstable is useful in that you can easily downgrade a package to the version in testing if needed until a problem is resolved. But mixing stable with those is almost never good practise. As a rule stable should never be mixed with anything except the backports repository - and the latter used selectively.

Debianising soure, learning to build packages and backporting for the stable distribution is more fruitful and interesting than chasing unstable's endless stream of updates.

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#11 Post by WhyDub »

But to return to the subject I found Debian unstable, and it's an euphemism, way less unstable then windows 10, it's not even comparable, which broke all the time after an upgrade. And i am under KDE, which is not the more easiest desktop environment to manage out here, it come whit alot of package when plasma is upgraded and have multiple setting and options.

I'll put it this way if you compare window whit Debian sid you will realise that windows which is suppose to be a stable OS is unstable and that Debian sid in comparison is stable which is said to be unstable, and that's because it's compared whit Debian stable which is a rock betony titan solid release.

DebainGnuLinux is the best. You just have to know your needs. Now be a real man don't let fear make a fool out of you and try Sid. :D

Also apt-mark hold package and apt-mark unhold package is also more often use in sid. Because it's true that package bug are usually quickly resolve, so you can wait and install it later.

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#12 Post by ComputerBob »

WhyDub wrote: 2021-10-10 13:32 I'll put it this way if you compare window whit Debian sid you will realise that windows which is suppose to be a stable OS is unstable and that Debian sid in comparison is stable which is said to be unstable, and that's because it's compared whit Debian stable which is a rock betony titan solid release.

DebainGnuLinux is the best. You just have to know your needs. Now be a real man don't let fear make a fool out of you and try Sid. :D
I'm no expert, and I've had 2 strokes, but even I KNOW that:

1) Your meaning of the word, "stable" is NOT the same as Debian's meaning of that word.

2) Whether you're joking or not, none of this has anything to do with being a man.
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#13 Post by gusi »

testing is best,
u can compare this with Suse Tumbleweed = a rolling release
The Kernel in Testing is 5.14 , that is the newest ,

unstable, i had 1 Year , but the Name say it all

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#14 Post by craigevil »

gusi wrote: 2021-10-10 16:49 testing is best,
u can compare this with Suse Tumbleweed = a rolling release
The Kernel in Testing is 5.14 , that is the newest ,

unstable, i had 1 Year , but the Name say it all
Testing gets Security updates last. Stable is what anyone new to Debian should be using.
You should only be using Testing or Unstable if you plan on filing bug reports.

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases
End users should generally choose to run either stable or testing. Stable is recommended for applications requiring production-level stability and security (servers, firewalls etc) and is also recommended for those who are new to Linux. Testing is recommended for advanced users who want new software on their desktops and who are capable of reporting and fixing bugs to help Debian.
Debian Releases: https://www.debian.org/releases/
Debian always has at least three releases in active maintenance: "stable", "testing" and "unstable".

stable

The "stable" distribution contains the latest officially released distribution of Debian.

This is the production release of Debian, the one which we primarily recommend using.

The current "stable" distribution of Debian is version 11, codenamed bullseye. It was initially released as version 11.0 on August 14th, 2021 and its latest update, version 11.1, was released on October 9th, 2021.
testing

The "testing" distribution contains packages that haven't been accepted into a "stable" release yet, but they are in the queue for that. The main advantage of using this distribution is that it has more recent versions of software.

See the Debian FAQ for more information on what is "testing" and how it becomes "stable".

The current "testing" distribution is bookworm.
unstable

The "unstable" distribution is where active development of Debian occurs. Generally, this distribution is run by developers and those who like to live on the edge. It is recommended that users running unstable should subscribe to the debian-devel-announce mailing list to receive notifications of major changes, for example upgrades that may break.

The "unstable" distribution is always called sid.
In other words, ONLY use Testing or Sid if you can fix problems when they occur and they will occur.
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi ... es#testing
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?

#15 Post by gusi »

i had never a problem with testing Craig !
I do support 30 People in my private Enviroment.
The "Master-Client" is on VM-Ware , with many Driver installed,
per image , i do transfer this to the real pc.
All is installed , also wine , vmware-player . steam , on 14GB space

i cant use the Stable-Version , because they buy new PC or Laptops.
Stable has sucks often on this, testing never.
And "Testing" on Debian is more stable like other Linux-Versions
'But i can not give "unstable" to them with the Repos, that would give a Catastrophe

Sry for my bad English

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#16 Post by wizard10000 »

If someone's gonna do apt pinning this is what works for me. As sunrat mentioned it's a terrible idea to map Stable or Testing repos into Sid.

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deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free

deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ experimental main contrib non-free
and

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Package: *
Pin: release a=unstable
Pin-Priority: 900

Package: *
Pin: release a=experimental
Pin-Priority: 1
we see things not as they are, but as we are.
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cynwulf

Re: Debian sid vs stable

#17 Post by cynwulf »

wizard10000 wrote: 2021-10-14 12:11 As sunrat mentioned it's a terrible idea to map Stable or Testing repos into Sid.
Again that statement needs qualifying - the "dont break debian" article mentions the introduction of testing and or unstable repositories into a stable system - it does not (so far as I can tell) cover or warn against adding the testing repositories to unstable. This is likeky because packages migrate from unstable to testing, not the other way around, so an unstable system will remain an unstable system with the testing repositories active - as the packages in unstable will always be the same or newer.

The other approach is to set the default release to testing and then install from unstable only when required.

rickh wrote an article on this many years ago:

viewtopic.php?t=15612

Yes it takes some management, but advising users to try absolutely nothing but stable and just issuing dos and don'ts without any rationale, comes across as being much like a (paid) helpdesk for an enterprise level distrbution...

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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#18 Post by sunrat »

cynwulf wrote: 2021-10-14 16:44
wizard10000 wrote: 2021-10-14 12:11 As sunrat mentioned it's a terrible idea to map Stable or Testing repos into Sid.
Again that statement needs qualifying - the "dont break debian" article mentions the introduction of testing and or unstable repositories into a stable system - it does not (so far as I can tell) cover or warn against adding the testing repositories to unstable.
I already qualified that statement, stable in sid = bad idea, testing in sid = mainly pointless (although one may want a package from testing once per blue moon, although likely not even that often).
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Re: Debian sid vs stable

#19 Post by wizard10000 »

cynwulf wrote: 2021-10-14 16:44Again that statement needs qualifying - the "dont break debian" article mentions the introduction of testing and or unstable repositories into a stable system - it does not (so far as I can tell) cover or warn against adding the testing repositories to unstable. This is likeky because packages migrate from unstable to testing, not the other way around, so an unstable system will remain an unstable system with the testing repositories active - as the packages in unstable will always be the same or newer.

The other approach is to set the default release to testing and then install from unstable only when required.

rickh wrote an article on this many years ago:

viewtopic.php?t=15612

Yes it takes some management, but advising users to try absolutely nothing but stable and just issuing dos and don'ts without any rationale, comes across as being much like a (paid) helpdesk for an enterprise level distrbution...
Please don't take offense, none is intended.

On no one officially saying it's a bad thing to map Stable to Sid, I'd offer that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Most respectfully and with a big smile I'd say that argument collapses under its own weight.

rickh wrote a fine piece and I agree with a lot of it but it's still an opinion piece (and it's 14 years old :)

My opinion is that there is no guidance so neither side can demonstrate the stronger argument. That said, I'm gonna say again that I agree with sunrat :mrgreen:

ps - I run (paid) IT helpdesks for a living :mrgreen:

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cynwulf

Re: Debian sid vs stable

#20 Post by cynwulf »

sunrat, wizard10000,

I'm with you on this, but I disagree with setting rules and fixed boundaries. We all experimented with these set ups back in the day - and new users should be encouraged to do the same where possible. If they want hand holding, there is 'buntu - and you can usually gauge early on if someone is better off going down that route.

I would also argue that mixing in testing is not "pointless", even if it's seldom needed. If it gets you out of a particular hole "once in a blue moon" it isn't pointless.

p.s. good to see you both still here.

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