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Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

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maybe(not)
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Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#1 Post by maybe(not) »

Very old person here, feeling quite out of his depth. Aspiring Windows refugee (casual user), have dabbled with Mint and Zorin with satisfactory experiences. Now trying to repurpose an old laptop with very meager hardware resources, and much internet research has brought me to Debian. Hoping to get some informed opinions as to whether or not I'm flogging a dead horse, an exercise I really can't afford.

The target machine is an old (roughly 2002 vintage) Toshiba Satellite M105-S1021, Celeron M 410 cpu 1.46GHz upgraded to its maximum of 2GB RAM, Physical Address Extension (info from CP>Performance and Maintenance>System Properties). Originally loaded with Windows XP (32 bit), which it seems to run well enough. It refuses to recognize any of the 32 bit iso discs I've used successfully that work just fine in W7 machines I use as experimental mules. From what my research has turned up, it is reported that some Celeron and Pentium processors, while capable of PAE, lack some sort of "flag" that makes the PAE usable. Which brings us to the essential question, 'Shouldn't a machine that runs XP be able to run a "lite" version of Linux?'. I like this little laptop, handy and comfortable to me. I don't want to scrap it if avoidable, but I'm pretty sure my steep learning curve days are over, and many higher priority projects demand my dwindling energies. I guess that is begging another question: is Debian pretty much the realm of assembly language programmers and probably too technical for casual email/internet search users? Mint and Zorin are about as technical as I'm able to manage at this point.

I know this is a highly subjective call, but I'm pretty sure there are a few of you out there able to appreciate my perspective and be willing to shed some insight. Any and all input will be most appreciated. Many thanks.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#2 Post by bw123 »

...'Shouldn't a machine that runs XP be able to run a "lite" version of Linux?
...
No, XP is ancient, the machine is a lost cause I have many of them. (opinion) Find something about 8-10 years old with 4GB minimum and sata ssd.
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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#3 Post by kedaha »

Hi,
I think antix might be the way to go.
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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#4 Post by Hallvor »

Get a hardware upgrade.

There is nothing wrong with Mint. If you are willing to make an effort, running Debian shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#5 Post by Shamak »

maybe(not) wrote: 2021-12-31 17:08 I guess that is begging another question: is Debian pretty much the realm of assembly language programmers and probably too technical for casual email/internet search users? Mint and Zorin are about as technical as I'm able to manage at this point.
I'm just a regular user. To be honest after reading your post you seem to me technical enough to run Debian. I haven't found it to be that great of a challenge. I ran Ubuntu for several months before Debian. If you can Google answers and read the Debian wiki (and of course search this forum) I would think you're good to go. (Actually the wiki can be quite technical and includes a lot of information so you have to look for what's relevant.)

I think when I started there were a couple of error messages that I had to Google for answers. And I had to figure out how to get the firmware to access the internet (there's a Debian firmware wiki page). But that was primarily it. For installing I used the network installer and used a YouTube video that ran through how to do it so I knew what to do and what to put in the fields.

Not sure what the regular members will think of this but I've found askubuntu.com to be very helpful.

No, it's not on the level of assembly language programmers. :)
Last edited by Shamak on 2021-12-31 19:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#6 Post by Hallvor »

Shamak wrote: 2021-12-31 18:24 Not sure what the regular members will think of this but I've found askubuntu.com to be very helpful.
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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#7 Post by FreewheelinFrank »

kedaha wrote: 2021-12-31 17:40 Hi,
I think antix might be the way to go.
+1.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#8 Post by p.H »

Opinion about the title : could be better. More informative.
maybe(not) wrote: 2021-12-31 17:08 The target machine is an old (roughly 2002 vintage) Toshiba Satellite M105-S1021, Celeron M 410 cpu 1.46GHz upgraded to its maximum of 2GB RAM
I run Debian with LXDE desktop on a ~2005/2006 laptop with Pentium M and 1.5 GiB RAM. It supports only IDE drives but I was lucky to get my hands on a fairly fast one.
maybe(not) wrote: 2021-12-31 17:08 It refuses to recognize any of the 32 bit iso discs
Can you elaborate ?
Which ISO images did you try ?
What media are you using ? CD/DVD or USB flash drive ?
Can the laptop read these media (from Windows) or any other media of the same type ?
If yes, can the laptop boot from such media ?
maybe(not) wrote: 2021-12-31 17:08 some Celeron and Pentium processors, while capable of PAE, lack some sort of "flag" that makes the PAE usable
Right, but
- you can force a PAE kernel to boot on such processor with the parameter "forcepae".
- the Debian installer kernel does not need PAE, and won't install a PAE kernel if the pae flag is not present.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#9 Post by Shamak »

Hallvor wrote: 2021-12-31 18:30
Shamak wrote: 2021-12-31 18:24 Not sure what the regular members will think of this but I've found askubuntu.com to be very helpful.
* Hands out nooses, torches and pitchforks. :mrgreen:
Lol

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#10 Post by Shamak »

Shamak wrote: 2021-12-31 18:24 If you can Google answers...
I should add you have to be a bit careful of this and not just blindly apply everything you see.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#11 Post by maybe(not) »

Thanks to you all for your thoughtful responses. Apologies for taking so long to reply back, couldn't remember how I got here and it took a bit to find the scribble with the needed notes.

With all that I have going on right now I've decided to shelve the laptop for now, or use it for non-internet tasks should the need arise. I had hoped that there would be a simple and quick (for the skill challenged such as myself) program out there that could easily replace what I assume is a relatively bloated and resource-demanding W-XP. I expect that sooner or later I'll be able to further explore your suggestions. Thanks again and best wishes for you all.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#12 Post by steve_v »

I'm late to this particular party, but here's my 2c anyway:
The short version is, Debian will absolutely run on that hardware... But it might not be all that usable, especially if you want to access the disaster that Google and co. have made of the internet.

I have a machine with not too dissimilar specs (dual-core 1.5Ghz atom CPU, 2GB RAM), and it dual-boots an ancient XP install and Devuan Beowulf. It works fine for what I use it for (dealing with ancient machines and their ancient interface software), so long as you avoid web browsers whenever possible. Trying to load something like faceborg is a lost cause, and even rendering the Google search landing will spin up the CPU fan...

That's the rub really, it's insane, it's ridiculous, and it's infuriating, but current web browsers and the mess that is the modern web really need more than 2GB of memory for a comfortable experience.
I shudder to think how many perfectly good machines have ended up in landfill thanks to lazy-ass webdevs and the obese "web 2.0" frameworks and javascript bloatware they're all obsessed with.
maybe(not) wrote: 2022-01-16 05:40I had hoped that there would be a simple and quick (for the skill challenged such as myself) program out there that could easily replace what I assume is a relatively bloated and resource-demanding W-XP.
There is, it's called "pretty much any GNU/Linux distro release from a time when Windows XP was still relevant". Times have, unfortunately, changed. You can have current (and secure) software, or you can have reasonable performance on old hardware. You can't really have both if you want a GUI and a usable web browser.

FWIW, PAE is a red herring. You only need it to address more than 2GB of RAM on a 32bit machine, so with exactly 2GB installed, it's irrelevant. It won't hurt anything though, assuming the hardware supports it.
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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#13 Post by seaken64 »

I agree with most of the comments here. But I do not think it is a lost cause. It really depends on you. There are many folks who continue to make old 32-bit systems work, either out of necessity or for fun. I am in the "for fun" group.

Debian is certainly capable. But if you are not willing to put in the work to figure stuff out it will be a little more of a challenge. I would suggest you look at both antiX 32-bit and MX-Fluxbox 32-bit. They have a good amount of the configuration done for you.

Another possibility is Puppy, although it is not Debian based, usually. Q4OS is another.

I have a similar laptop and it ran Windows XP fine until it upgraded to SP3. I backed it off to SP2 and it still runs good. I put antiX-19 Full on it for when I want to use the web on that machine. I use SeaMonkey and SlimJet browsers on that system. Only 512MB of RAM. I would say your 2GB of RAM should be a better experience than I can get with my similar machine.

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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#14 Post by manyroads »

Think antique automobiles when you work with 'vintage computers'. You can shine them up, make them run smoothly, even be reliable. But, they'll never run far beyond their original specifications without wise, helpful assistance;...and it may take a LOT of skill and patience. But as was pointed out by @seaken64, it can, and should, be fun.
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Re: Lost cause? Opinions appreciated.

#15 Post by p.H »

steve_v wrote: 2022-01-16 07:47 FWIW, PAE is a red herring. You only need it to address more than 2GB of RAM on a 32bit machine
It depends on the machine and how much RAM it maps beneath the 4 GiB boundary. Some map up to 2 GiB only and remap the rest beyond the 4 GiB boundary, but others can map as much as ~3.5 GiB.
Also, PAE is required to enable the NX/XD bit (execution prevention) on CPUs which support it, which is desirable IMO.

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