Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Bonkers Gnome

Graphical Environments, Managers, Multimedia & Desktop questions.
Message
Author
User avatar
oswaldkelso
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1486
Joined: 2005-07-26 23:20
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 55 times

Bonkers Gnome

#1 Post by oswaldkelso »

Bonkers Gnome

I just tried Bullseye on my netbook. I admit mostly to try the graphical installer and look at Gnome again. I liked the installer screen snap feature but the ncurces installer is just superb.

Being i386 only means it has limited repos. Like PPC, which only has two sources so offering lots of incompatible mirrors could be very confusing to new users.

Obviously the i386 netbook was to low spec for gnome so defaulting to it is not conducive to a good experince. logging off was confusing by only having suspend in the drop-down until you logged back in. This made no sense to me as a single user because if someone else wanted to turm off my computer they just press the power button. I can only assume it's something to do with multi-seat.

Installation was a breeze.

After 2nd reboot entering my password and pressing the return took about 30 seconds for the screen to appear and a further 10 for the DE to become active.

"Get things done with ease, comfort, and control.
Simple and Easy to Use
Intuitive and Efficient
Finely Crafted"

Balderdash IMHO

I honestly believe they've approach the design from the wrong end of the stick. Rather than a pure logic and efficiency approach they've watched how humans try and do things with all their inbuilt learnt behaviours. I would watch my ex click on the "start" menu and not find something because I'd switched from LXDE to Xfce. All she knew was from her windows days was go to the start menu. The start menu just happened to be in the same place! Well replace start with activities and you get the idea.

Even allowing for the slow PC the Gnome interface is bonkers for ordinary users. Though for people with disabilities I suspect it's one quite good. When compared to other DEs and WMs it seems feature rich. This is the only logical reason I can fathom for it to be the default desktop. It's the only DE that's had me screaming at my computer in frustration. Even when using it like a pro. Yes I actually visited the website, read the man page and watched videos on how to use Gnome efficiently. It is the classic horse designed by a committee... a camel. Worse than that a fat camel with 4 humps and two 6 inch legs.

It's not possible to use it efficiently. Not when compared to other DE's or Window managers once they're configured. That I admit that takes time and effort, but it will repay you heaps to setup any decent WM like icewm, notion or TWM with a huge bonus in GTD efficiently not just for the user but for the poor computer also.

Think about it: the main user interfaces are keyboard, mouse, and menus and have been for over 30 years. You would thing that how we proiatise and improve our usage of those tools would be improving over that time not being slowed down. Certainly no being helped by ugly code underneath (Máirín Duffy) I actually started to log the number and speed and ease of use with my dragora-ice icewm based desktop compared to gnome.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." For me the nearest to that is notion4 and I use about 10% of it's features. I can only guess someone really needs the other 90%. notion3 was in non-free so I never tried it. Only WM I've ever used with no changes ootb bax saving the sesion and theme. Setting both takes about 5 seconds.

Most stuff looked quite familiar but default search google! and a simple changing host name has gone down some rabbit hole.. Anyway apt install notion twm xterm rox-filer (no-recommends) and spacefm and some sort of sanity was restored.

This is my notes from my previous attempt on another machine

Gnome way:

---- Gnome ----

The one thing I notice about modern software is the constant atempt to reinvent the wheel... Usually bady. Gnomes attempt at a wheel looks and performs like a "Ten bob bit"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_pen ... sh_coin%29 No mater how I look at it, very little of it makes any sence.

The usage is convoluted even when using it like a power user!

edit: fix broken link: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KSQxPnKwNc8

It's simple count the actions required to perform a task. See the resources required to perform those actions and their ease of use. Now I acknowledge that as a GUI these action won't necessarily be as fast as using a terminal and it is meant to be usable ootb. Some configuration is expected even gnome allows some changes and I know your granny it not likely to be at home in xmonad or ratpoison strait off the bat. But configuring a desktop from scratch in gnu/linux is not rocket science.
add WM, file manager, launchers, menus, and make it pretty (or not).

Gnome way: According to their docs

To access your windows and applications, click the Activities button, or just move your mouse pointer to the top-left hot corner. You can also press the *Super key* on your keyboard. You can see your windows and applications in the overview. You can also just start typing to search your applications, files, folders, and the web.

On the left of the overview, you will find the dash. The dash shows you your favourite and running applications. Click any icon in the dash to open that application; if the application is already running, it will be highlighted. Clicking its icon will bring up the most recently used window. You can also drag the icon to the overview, or onto any workspace on the right.
Right-clicking the icon displays a menu that allows you to pick any window in a running application, or to open a new window. You can also click the icon while holding down *Ctrl* to open a new window.


Launch applications with the mouse
Move your mouse pointer to the Activities corner at the top left of the screen to show the Activities Overview.
Click the Show Applications icon that is shown at the bottom of the bar on the left-hand side of the screen.
A list of applications is shown. Click the application you want to run, for example, Help.
Launch applications with the keyboard
Open the Activities Overview by pressing the Super key.
Start typing the name of the application you want to launch. Searching for the application begins instantly.
Once the icon of the application is shown and selected, press Enter to launch the application.


Start applications
Move your mouse pointer to the Activities corner at the top left of the screen to show the Activities overview. This is where you can find all of your applications. You can also open the overview by pressing the Super key.
There are several ways of opening an application once you’re in the Activities overview:
Start typing the name of an application — searching begins instantly. (If this doesn’t happen, click the search bar at the top of the screen and start typing.) If you don’t know the exact name of an application, try to type an related term. Click the application’s icon to start it.
Some applications have icons in the dash, the vertical strip of icons on the left-hand side of the Activities overview. Click one of these to start the corresponding application.

If you have applications that you use very frequently, you can add them to the dash yourself.
Click the grid button at the bottom of the dash. You will see the frequently used applications if the Frequent view is enabled. If you want to run a new application, press the All button at the bottom to view all the applications. Press on the application to start it.
You can launch an application in a separate workspace by dragging its icon from the dash, and dropping it onto one of the workspaces on the right-hand side of the screen. The application will open in the chosen workspace.
You can launch an application in a new workspace by dragging its icon to the empty workspace at the bottom of the workspace switcher, or to the small gap between two workspaces.
Quickly running a command

Another way of launching an application is to press Alt+F2, enter its command name, and then press the Enter key.
For example, to launch Rhythmbox, press Alt+F2 and type ‘rhythmbox’ (without the single-quotes). The name of the app is the command to launch the program.
Use the arrow keys to quickly access previously run commands.

Summary:
Launching:
If you know the application name.
Super: type the name
Alt+F2: type the name (with Left, Right arrow keys for history <- ->

If you don't know the application name.
click "activities" select application from the "dash" or workspace
Super+a to "Show Applications" i.e. SOME of the launch-icons.

what most people do is click "activities" in the TOP left. If the application is not in the dash "favourites" move to the left BOTTOM of the screen and select "Show Applications". Now on my screen that's 30 applications if you want more you have to select ANOTHER page and ANOTHER and so on.

Windows 95 had application aliases on the desktop 25 years ago that was more efficient

task switching:
super+tab
tiling click activities > select a window-bar drag left, select a window-bar drag right. If you already have a window tiled un-tile it first.

Resources: Needs hardware acceleration to move windows efficiently, this requires non-free firmware for many people which goes against their own stated aims. When running it's a hog. Starting it used at least 33% of my memory (1GB of my 3GB) and a big chunk of my cpu to do zilch. Gnome clean boot took over 30s from hitting enter on login to usable desktop.

Now I could understand it I were gaining some sort of benefit, like calculating the if vitinin D improved the resistance of BAME people to covid-19. or the time left before climate change destroys the habitable world. But no. We're just starting a computer interface and you'd think we'd have the hang of it by now since it been around for well over 30 years.

Now we all know that gnome is a DE and they don't like users changing it. I mean it's meant to be clean easy to use and simple (simple I can agree with). But the first thing you need to do to this pile of bloat is add more bloat to make it usable.... The logic is stunning.

Bonkers ends & Sanity starts

---- icewm ----

No display manager. I am the only user on my computers and see not benefit in using a display manager to log me in to my machines.
1. Pick my DE or WM if not using the previous one if using X
2. enter user name
3. enter password
4. startx or not as the case maybe

The ability to see and hence read what's going on while it boots and when I've broke it is a feature not a flaw.

icewm-(dragora-ice)

icewm has been around since 1997. Something's suck about it. Two come to mind that are legacy and a reminder of it's age. The workspaces/panel (I replace it with tint2) and I'm buggered if I can recall the second! Got it. It's ugly ootb and in general you need to configure it which count as one! Usable by just about anyone ootb. Configured properly by the few that rtfm. It's a gem. Oh, it's also maintained by people that are interested in fixing bugs not introducing them.

Usage:
Summary:

To access your applications:
If you know the application name.
The built in menu
The taskbar
Space:type the name
click-hotspot to launch one of up to 72 applications.(that's one click)
keybinds modifier+key set to what ever you need (that's usually one or two key presses)

If you don't know the application name.
Open the bookmark to the "applications" directory (that's one click)
open runner press tab and see just about every program on the system (that's one click and tab)

Note:
I shall refer to keys strokes as clicks because because both can be setup to do identical actions unless needed for clarity.

task switching:
alt+tab
one click in tint2
tiling one click. all window on the active workspace tile. either vertical or horizontal as you choose.

To access your windows:
Select the window from tint2. one click.
Numerous 2 click methods


---- evilwm ----

evilwm - we sold our souls to the window manager. Minimalist window manager for the X Window System.

A little newer 2000ish and of a simpler design. Finished in about 2007 with changes restricted to bug fixes and user mods.

This one needs user input to make their own but once done is a joy in it's simplicity and power. As it says on the can.
'Minimalist' doesn't mean it's too bare to be usable; just that it omits a lot of the stuff that make others unusable. Some features:

No title bar, no icons.
Simple 1-pixel (configurable) border.
Reasonable EWMH support.
Good keyboard control, including repositioning and maximise toggles.
Virtual desktops.
Snap-to-border.
Small binary.
Configuration file read on startup.

my setup:
evilwm+gaps: fittstool, simpleswitcher, runner, not required by me but avalible. xbindkeys, xmenu/pmenu,
launching:
ctrl+Alt+return for a terminal
keybinds modifier+key set to what ever you need (that's usually one or two key presses)
If you don't know the application name.
Open the file manager bookmarks to the "applications" directory (that's one click to open the correct window and one click to launch the application so two clicks)
open runner press tab and see just about every program on the system (that's one click and tab, select)
pmenu/xmenu a mouse button on root window and the menu contains what ever you decided to add to it.

task switching:
alt+tab to cycle non skipped windows on active workspace.
keybind+insert or 0 or alt-mmb to cycle down a stack of windows
F12-select-return in simpleswitcher to select and switch to any window on any workspace.

tiling:
big windows 50/50:
first window ctrl+alt+cy second window ctrl+alt+c

vert:
first window ctrl+alt+= second window ctrl+alt+=

horiz lh screen/side:
first window ctrl+c=u second window ctrl+alt+c=b

horiz full screen:
first window ctrl+x=u second window ctrl+alt+x=b


---- sowm ----

sowm

Shitty opinionated window manager.

Somewhat like aewm or 9wm

Only manages your windows. Very easy to use. I use fittstool, xclick root, pmenu and add a wallpaper (Esetroot -scale wallpaper.jpg) . It's light enough my 2006 intel atom on my nc10 can handle the bling of conky, wmbubble, and kittyscanner and still feel fast.

Default Keybindings

Window Management
combo action
Mouse focus under cursor
MOD4 + Left Mouse move window
MOD4 + Right Mouse resize window
MOD4 + f maximize toggle
MOD4 + c centre window
MOD4 + q kill window
MOD4 + 1-9 desktop swap
MOD4 + Shift +1-9 send window to desktop
MOD1 + TAB (alt-tab) focus cycle

Programs
combo action program
MOD4 + Return terminal st
MOD4 + d dmenu dmenu_run
MOD4 + p scrot scr
MOD4 + w wallpaper cycler bud
XF86_AudioLowerVolume volume down amixer
XF86_AudioRaiseVolume volume up amixer
XF86_AudioMute volume toggle amixer
XF86_MonBrightnessUp brightness up bri
XF86_MonBrightnessDown brightness down bri

the default keybinds arn't my cup of tea so in the grand unix way I change things.
MOD4 + Return terminal xterm
keybinds modifier+key set to what ever you need (that's usually one or two key presses)
If you don't know the application name.
Open the filemanager bookmark to the "applications" directory (that's one click to open the correct window and one click to launch the application so two clicks)
open runner press tab and see just about every program on the system (that's one click and tab, select)
pmenu/xmenu a mouse button on root window and the menu contains what ever you decided to add to it.


task switching:
MOD4 + 1-9 desktop swap
MOD4 + Shift +1-9 send window to desktop
MOD1 + TAB (alt-tab) focus cycle

tiling:
none


---- notion ----

add fittstool, configure it then and learn the notion keybinds F12 Escape and mod4+something

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I can understand folks with nice shiny new computers not giving a crap. If you have gobbs of RAM and a blistering fast CPU and your binary blobs to power it. You may not even notice these failings. But Debian putting it as the defacto desktop is plain wrong imho. It should come with a warning or a check before inflicting this monster on unsuspecting new users. Rant over.
Free Software Matters
Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
My oldest used PC: 1999 imac 333Mhz 256MB PPC abandoned by Debian

User avatar
oswaldkelso
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1486
Joined: 2005-07-26 23:20
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#2 Post by oswaldkelso »

bump:

There must be at least one gnome user that has a rational argument that says my theory is tosh and I've missed something!

Maybe not :-)

If you love Gnome please show me where I'm wrong, because I'm flummoxed .
Free Software Matters
Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
My oldest used PC: 1999 imac 333Mhz 256MB PPC abandoned by Debian

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#3 Post by steve_v »

oswaldkelso wrote: 2021-09-17 20:49If you love Gnome please show me where I'm wrong, because I'm flummoxed.
I loved GNOME, back when it wasn't trash. That makes me old, because I'm talking about pre-1.6 GNOME here, before the eazel collaboration and nautilus... When it was fast, configurable, and ran reasonably well in 24MB of RAM. :D

GNOME 2.x wasn't bad, but the feature-stripping trajectory was already becoming obvious. More things that used to be in the control panel vanished into the "gconf" registry, and previously configurable behaviour began to require third-party "tweak" tools to change.
The path was, at this point, becoming obvious. Many still love it of course, as it's not a huge deviation from the tried-and-true desktop paradigm. It's telling that there are forks to keep it alive.

Then GNOME 3 happened. Sharks were jumped. "UX designers" were hired to create a "GNOME experience" that would be unique and different... Insanity ensued.
Almost all end-user configurability went away, and the developers started talking about promoting and preserving "our brand" and actively discouraged even basic desktop theming - let alone allowing the user to change the "HIG guidelines" forced workflow.
OpenGL and systemd became mandatory to support the new shiny, and system requirements ballooned.

Meanwhile, if you want efficiency you use a traditional (or not) WM, and if you want a shiny, configurable desktop that adapts to your workflow rather than the other way around, you use Plasma.

Why would you use GNOME 3.x? Beats me. Maybe because it's a Redhat invention, or because it's the default on several distros. Perhaps you like unlearning how to use your computer and navigating incomprehensible menus and "shortcuts". Maybe you really wanted a Mac or really liked Windows 8, and want a similarly shiny, but equally bizarre UI...
Maybe it works well on a touchscreen, but I wouldn't know, I can't hold my arms up at such an unnatural angle for long enough to find out.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#4 Post by 4D696B65 »

steve_v wrote: 2021-09-18 01:37 Maybe it works well on a touchscreen,.
LOL actually no. The onscreen keyboard has no arrow keys making terminal use laborious.

User avatar
Hallvor
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2020
Joined: 2009-04-16 18:35
Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 204 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#5 Post by Hallvor »

steve_v wrote: 2021-09-18 01:37 I loved GNOME, back when it wasn't trash. That makes me old, because I'm talking about pre-1.6 GNOME here, before the eazel collaboration and nautilus... When it was fast, configurable, and ran reasonably well in 24MB of RAM. :D

GNOME 2.x wasn't bad, but the feature-stripping trajectory was already becoming obvious.
My first experience with any GNU/Linux desktop environment was Gnome 2, and I liked it a lot. I remember thinking how simple and intuitive everything was. Even without prior experience, I could pretty much guess where to find stuff and how to accomplish a task. It was straight forward, dull, unobtrusive and certainly not fancy, but the workflow was great.
Then GNOME 3 happened. Sharks were jumped. "UX designers" were hired to create a "GNOME experience" that would be unique and different... Insanity ensued.
There must have been an idea that a desktop environment should be so much more than intuitiveness, workflow and efficiency. In trying to accomplish that, it became less intuitive, worsened the workflow and it consumed much more resources. And for what? If the user has to read manuals or watch YouTube videos to accomplish basic tasks (mind you, I've had to to the same in KDE), something is seriously wrong.
[HowTo] Install and configure Debian bookworm
Debian 12 | KDE Plasma | ThinkPad T440s | 4 × Intel® Core™ i7-4600U CPU @ 2.10GHz | 12 GiB RAM | Mesa Intel® HD Graphics 4400 | 1 TB SSD

User avatar
ticojohn
Posts: 1284
Joined: 2009-08-29 18:10
Location: Costa Rica
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 44 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#6 Post by ticojohn »

When I first started using Debian, circa 2009, I installed Gnome, I think because it was the default. In any case I HATED it! Tried some other DE's and found that I liked XFCE better than any other. It may not be the lightest but I find it so configurable that I can get about any look and feel that I want. But it all comes down to user preference, doesn't it? But I would never recommend the GNOME DE to anybody. That being said, there are a couple of GNOME packages that use, like the Disks utility, but I would not install the GNOME DE.

For me GNOME = GARBAGE NOT ON MY EQUIPMENT.
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

User avatar
craigevil
Posts: 5391
Joined: 2006-09-17 03:17
Location: heaven
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 39 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#7 Post by craigevil »

MATE is much better than Gnome.
Raspberry PI 400 Distro: Raspberry Pi OS Base: Debian Sid Kernel: 5.15.69-v8+ aarch64 DE: MATE Ram 4GB
Debian - "If you can't apt install something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"
My Giant Sources.list

User avatar
NFT5
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 596
Joined: 2014-10-10 11:38
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#8 Post by NFT5 »

oswaldkelso wrote: 2021-09-17 20:49 There must be at least one gnome user that has a rational argument that says my theory is tosh and I've missed something!

Maybe not
Coincidental that all those saying Gnome is rubbish are those who have been using Linux the longest? Personally Gnome has too many similarities to Unity, an interface that prompted my move to Debian and the sanity of MATE.
Hallvor wrote: 2021-09-18 21:09 There must have been an idea that a desktop environment should be so much more than intuitiveness, workflow and efficiency. In trying to accomplish that, it became less intuitive, worsened the workflow and it consumed much more resources.
Nailed it. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.
steve_v wrote: 2021-09-18 01:37 if you want a shiny, configurable desktop that adapts to your workflow rather than the other way around, you use Plasma.
True. Provided you have a computer that has the grunt to run it.
craigevil wrote: 2021-09-19 01:49 MATE is much better than Gnome.
Also true and if it had a bit more configurability it would edge out Plasma, taking only half the HDD and RAM.

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#9 Post by sunrat »

NFT5 wrote: 2021-09-19 03:00
steve_v wrote: 2021-09-18 01:37 if you want a shiny, configurable desktop that adapts to your workflow rather than the other way around, you use Plasma.
True. Provided you have a computer that has the grunt to run it.
KDE being a heavyweight distro is old news. Plasma 5 on my laptop boots to a bit under 500MB which is about the same as Xfce (since GTK3). I've seen reports of Gnome using 1.3GB on boot although that was in Ubuntu.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
NFT5
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 596
Joined: 2014-10-10 11:38
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#10 Post by NFT5 »

sunrat wrote: 2021-09-19 05:02 KDE being a heavyweight distro is old news
Hmmmm. Freshly restarted, nothing running except for Plasma

Code: Select all

chris@MAINDESK:~$ free
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:        16399068     1025688    14378572       21992      994808    15063872
Swap:       17822716           0    17822716
chris@MAINDESK:~$ inxi -F
System:
  Host: MAINDESK Kernel: 5.10.0-8-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.20.5 
  Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye) 
Machine:
  Type: Desktop System: Gigabyte product: B450M AORUS ELITE v: N/A 
  serial: <superuser required> 
  Mobo: Gigabyte model: B450M AORUS ELITE v: x.x serial: <superuser required> 
  UEFI: American Megatrends v: F2 date: 11/27/2019 
CPU:
  Info: 6-Core model: AMD Ryzen 5 1600 bits: 64 type: MT MCP L2 cache: 3 MiB 
  Speed: 1379 MHz min/max: 1550/3200 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 1379 2: 1449 3: 1412 
  4: 1392 5: 1377 6: 1543 7: 1385 8: 1377 9: 1387 10: 1543 11: 1469 12: 1546 
Graphics:
  Device-1: NVIDIA GK208B [GeForce GT 710] driver: nvidia v: 460.91.03 
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.11 driver: loaded: nvidia 
  unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,nouveau,vesa resolution: 1: 1920x1200~60Hz 
  2: 1200x1920~60Hz 
  OpenGL: renderer: GeForce GT 710/PCIe/SSE2 v: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 460.91.03 
Audio:
  Device-1: NVIDIA GK208 HDMI/DP Audio driver: snd_hda_intel 
  Device-2: AMD Family 17h HD Audio driver: snd_hda_intel 
  Sound Server: ALSA v: k5.10.0-8-amd64 
Network:
  Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet driver: r8169 
  IF: eno1 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: b4:2e:99:ed:d7:ca 
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 4.77 TiB used: 3.15 TiB (66.0%) 
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Transcend model: TS240GSSD220S size: 223.57 GiB 
  ID-2: /dev/sdb vendor: Samsung model: SSD 860 EVO 1TB size: 931.51 GiB 
  ID-3: /dev/sdc vendor: Seagate model: ST1000DM003-1ER162 size: 931.51 GiB 
  ID-4: /dev/sdd type: USB vendor: Toshiba model: External USB 3.0 size: 1.82 TiB 
  ID-5: /dev/sdj vendor: Seagate model: ST1000DM003-1ER162 size: 931.51 GiB 
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 24.44 GiB used: 9.12 GiB (37.3%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2 
  ID-2: /boot/efi size: 511 MiB used: 10.8 MiB (2.1%) fs: vfat dev: /dev/sda1 
  ID-3: /home size: 39.08 GiB used: 1.73 GiB (4.4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda3 
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: partition size: 17 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) dev: /dev/sda8 
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 35.2 C mobo: N/A gpu: nvidia temp: 44 C 
  Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A gpu: nvidia fan: 50% 
Info:
  Processes: 273 Uptime: 6m Memory: 15.64 GiB used: 1.82 GiB (11.6%) Shell: Bash 
  inxi: 3.3.01 
On this machine Plasma runs like a dream and its overhead is no problem. On both my notebooks, AMD A9 and 2GHz quad core, each with 8GB RAM and SSDs, Plasma is painfully slow. MATE works a treat on those. Haven't tried but imagine Gnome would be terrible.

User avatar
Hallvor
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2020
Joined: 2009-04-16 18:35
Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 204 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#11 Post by Hallvor »

NFT5 wrote: 2021-09-19 05:52
Hmmmm. Freshly restarted, nothing running except for Plasma

Those numbers look strange. Fresh boot on my T440S, clean desktop.

Code: Select all

[code]hallvor@debian-thinkpad:~$ free -m
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:            7647         555        5904         161        1187        6685
[HowTo] Install and configure Debian bookworm
Debian 12 | KDE Plasma | ThinkPad T440s | 4 × Intel® Core™ i7-4600U CPU @ 2.10GHz | 12 GiB RAM | Mesa Intel® HD Graphics 4400 | 1 TB SSD

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#12 Post by sunrat »

@NFT5 Nvidia driver on my desktop does add several hundred MB but not nearly as much as yours. My lowly Yoga 11e with intel graphics is much lighter. Plasma seems just as fast on both though. Was that a netinstall or full DVD?
Here's notebook info to compare:

Code: Select all

free
              total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:        3859108      455740     2844900       78120      558468     3095716
Swap:       4340732           0     4340732

inxi -F
System:
  Host: yoga-brain Kernel: 4.19.0-17-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 
  Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.14.5 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Machine:
  Type: Convertible System: LENOVO product: 20G80001AU 
  v: ThinkPad Yoga 11e 3rd Gen serial: <filter> 
  Mobo: LENOVO model: Intel powered classmate PC v: SDK0J40700 WIN 
  serial: <filter> UEFI: LENOVO v: R0AET37W (1.20) date: 01/19/2018 
Battery:
  ID-1: BAT1 charge: 41.0 Wh condition: 41.0/42.0 Wh (98%) 
CPU:
  Topology: Quad Core model: Intel Celeron N3150 bits: 64 type: MCP 
  L2 cache: 1024 KiB 
  Speed: 480 MHz min/max: 480/2080 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 480 2: 487 3: 480 
  4: 480 
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel Atom/Celeron/Pentium Processor x5-E8000/J3xxx/N3xxx 
  Integrated Graphics 
  driver: i915 v: kernel 
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.4 driver: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa 
  resolution: 1366x768~60Hz 
  OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel HD Graphics 400 (Braswell) 
  v: 4.5 Mesa 18.3.6 
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel Atom/Celeron/Pentium Processor x5-E8000/J3xxx/N3xxx Series 
  High Definition Audio 
  driver: snd_hda_intel 
  Sound Server: ALSA v: k4.19.0-17-amd64 
Network:
  Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet 
  driver: r8169 
  IF: enp2s0 state: down mac: <filter> 
  Device-2: Intel Wireless 7265 driver: iwlwifi 
  IF: wlp3s0 state: up mac: <filter> 
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 119.24 GiB used: 9.20 GiB (7.7%) 
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Samsung model: MZNTY128HDHP-000L1 size: 119.24 GiB
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
NFT5
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 596
Joined: 2014-10-10 11:38
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#13 Post by NFT5 »

sunrat wrote: 2021-09-19 07:29 Was that a netinstall or full DVD?
Netinstall

For comparison, same machine, Plasma on Buster but with Backports kernel

Code: Select all

chris@MAINDESK:~$ free
              total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:       16335096     1338020    13474884       26004     1522192    14668304
Swap:      17822716           0    17822716
chris@MAINDESK:~$ inxi -F
System:    Host: MAINDESK Kernel: 5.10.0-0.bpo.7-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.14.5 
           Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Machine:   Type: Desktop System: Gigabyte product: B450M AORUS ELITE v: N/A serial: <root required> 
           Mobo: Gigabyte model: B450M AORUS ELITE v: x.x serial: <root required> UEFI: American Megatrends v: F2 
           date: 11/27/2019 
CPU:       Topology: 6-Core model: AMD Ryzen 5 1600 bits: 64 type: MT MCP L2 cache: 3072 KiB 
           Speed: 1374 MHz min/max: 1550/3200 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 1375 2: 1372 3: 1413 4: 2730 5: 1373 6: 1331 7: 1332 
           8: 2411 9: 1373 10: 1372 11: 1374 12: 1415 
Graphics:  Device-1: NVIDIA GK208 [GeForce GT 710B] driver: nvidia v: 390.143 
           Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.4 driver: nvidia unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,nouveau,vesa 
           resolution: 1920x1200~60Hz, 1920x1200~60Hz 
           OpenGL: renderer: GeForce GT 710/PCIe/SSE2 v: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 390.143 
Audio:     Device-1: NVIDIA GK208 HDMI/DP Audio driver: snd_hda_intel 
           Device-2: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Family 17h HD Audio driver: snd_hda_intel 
           Sound Server: ALSA v: k5.10.0-0.bpo.7-amd64 
Network:   Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet driver: r8169 
           IF: eno1 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: b4:2e:99:ed:d7:ca 
Drives:    Local Storage: total: 4.77 TiB used: 3.16 TiB (66.2%) 
           ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Transcend model: TS240GSSD220S size: 223.57 GiB 
           ID-2: /dev/sdb vendor: Samsung model: SSD 860 EVO 1TB size: 931.51 GiB 
           ID-3: /dev/sdc vendor: Seagate model: ST1000DM003-1ER162 size: 931.51 GiB 
           ID-4: /dev/sdd type: USB vendor: Toshiba model: External USB 3.0 size: 1.82 TiB 
           ID-5: /dev/sde vendor: Seagate model: ST1000DM003-1ER162 size: 931.51 GiB 
Partition: ID-1: / size: 24.48 GiB used: 16.58 GiB (67.7%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda6 
           ID-2: /home size: 39.12 GiB used: 3.05 GiB (7.8%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda7 
           ID-3: swap-1 size: 17.00 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda8 
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 39.1 C mobo: N/A gpu: nvidia temp: 49 C 
           Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A gpu: nvidia fan: 50% 
Info:      Processes: 333 Uptime: 1m Memory: 15.58 GiB used: 1.40 GiB (9.0%) Shell: bash inxi: 3.0.32
And now, again same machine but MATE desktop:

Code: Select all

chris@MAINDESK:~$ free
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:        16399068     1025688    14378572       21992      994808    15063872
Swap:       17822716           0    17822716
chris@MAINDESK:~$ inxi -F
System:
  Host: MAINDESK Kernel: 5.10.0-8-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.20.5 
  Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye) 
Machine:
  Type: Desktop System: Gigabyte product: B450M AORUS ELITE v: N/A 
  serial: <superuser required> 
  Mobo: Gigabyte model: B450M AORUS ELITE v: x.x serial: <superuser required> 
  UEFI: American Megatrends v: F2 date: 11/27/2019 
CPU:
  Info: 6-Core model: AMD Ryzen 5 1600 bits: 64 type: MT MCP L2 cache: 3 MiB 
  Speed: 1379 MHz min/max: 1550/3200 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 1379 2: 1449 3: 1412 
  4: 1392 5: 1377 6: 1543 7: 1385 8: 1377 9: 1387 10: 1543 11: 1469 12: 1546 
Graphics:
  Device-1: NVIDIA GK208B [GeForce GT 710] driver: nvidia v: 460.91.03 
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.11 driver: loaded: nvidia 
  unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,nouveau,vesa resolution: 1: 1920x1200~60Hz 
  2: 1200x1920~60Hz 
  OpenGL: renderer: GeForce GT 710/PCIe/SSE2 v: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 460.91.03 
Audio:
  Device-1: NVIDIA GK208 HDMI/DP Audio driver: snd_hda_intel 
  Device-2: AMD Family 17h HD Audio driver: snd_hda_intel 
  Sound Server: ALSA v: k5.10.0-8-amd64 
Network:
  Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet driver: r8169 
  IF: eno1 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: b4:2e:99:ed:d7:ca 
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 4.77 TiB used: 3.15 TiB (66.0%) 
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Transcend model: TS240GSSD220S size: 223.57 GiB 
  ID-2: /dev/sdb vendor: Samsung model: SSD 860 EVO 1TB size: 931.51 GiB 
  ID-3: /dev/sdc vendor: Seagate model: ST1000DM003-1ER162 size: 931.51 GiB 
  ID-4: /dev/sdd type: USB vendor: Toshiba model: External USB 3.0 size: 1.82 TiB 
  ID-5: /dev/sdj vendor: Seagate model: ST1000DM003-1ER162 size: 931.51 GiB 
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 24.44 GiB used: 9.12 GiB (37.3%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2 
  ID-2: /boot/efi size: 511 MiB used: 10.8 MiB (2.1%) fs: vfat dev: /dev/sda1 
  ID-3: /home size: 39.08 GiB used: 1.73 GiB (4.4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda3 
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: partition size: 17 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) dev: /dev/sda8 
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 35.2 C mobo: N/A gpu: nvidia temp: 44 C 
  Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A gpu: nvidia fan: 50% 
Info:
  Processes: 273 Uptime: 6m Memory: 15.64 GiB used: 1.82 GiB (11.6%) Shell: Bash 
  inxi: 3.3.01 
I don't want to take this thread off topic too much, but my point is that Gnome had it in the bag with Gnome 2 and have pretty much just gone downhill from there in both interface, system resource usage and performance. Imagine how good MATE would be if they had the resources that Gnome has.
Last edited by NFT5 on 2021-09-19 08:01, edited 1 time in total.

greg9
Posts: 34
Joined: 2021-09-14 06:29
Has thanked: 6 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#14 Post by greg9 »

Hi

If this post is about GNOME (and KDE) getting huge....NFT5 writes

Code: Select all

free
              total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:       16335096     1338020    13474884       26004     1522192    14668304
Swap:      17822716           0    17822716

Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.20.5 

inxi -F with SNIPS
Local Storage: total: 4.77 TiB used: 3.16 TiB (66.2%) 
snip
Processes: 333 Uptime: 1m Memory: 15.58 GiB used: 1.40 GiB (9.0%) Shell: bash inxi: 3.0.32
On IceWM I have

Code: Select all

free
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:         6025964      784072     4605280        9828      636612     4995576
Swap:        8191996           0     8191996

Desktop: IceWM 2.7.0 (on bookworm)

inxi -F with SNIPS
Local Storage: total: 447.13 GiB used: 15.45 GiB (3.5%)
snip
Processes: 190 Uptime: 15m Memory: 5.75 GiB used: 1 GiB (17.5%) Shell: Bash inxi: 3.3.06
hmm inxi must be a private update?

Below is smoke and mirrors.....AKA spin doctoring.
The ratio of processes is 333/190 gives 1.75......so if multiply that factor by 5.75 g used for Ice we should use only 10G for KDE.
Me thinks KDE is inefficient as well
Last edited by greg9 on 2021-09-19 08:11, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NFT5
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 596
Joined: 2014-10-10 11:38
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#15 Post by NFT5 »

greg9 wrote: 2021-09-19 07:57 hmm inxi must be a private update?
I did say that that one was on Buster, so inxi 3.0.32, whereas the Bookworm extracts are both, like yours, 3.3.0x.

I wouldn't argue about efficiency. That's why I originally made the comment about having the horsepower to run Plasma. But, if you do......it really is nice. :D

User avatar
Hallvor
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2020
Joined: 2009-04-16 18:35
Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 204 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#16 Post by Hallvor »

NFT5 wrote: 2021-09-19 08:10 I wouldn't argue about efficiency. That's why I originally made the comment about having the horsepower to run Plasma. But, if you do......it really is nice. :D
Efficiency to some is reading the number of RAM in use on a clean desktop (without considering the number of features and memory management once you start launching applications).

KDE Plasma should be comparable to XFCE in memory usage, but has several times the features of anything else.

With the KDE3 fork TDE (still maintained), the numbers become ugly in all directions.

Come on, flame me, but you know I am right. :wink:
[HowTo] Install and configure Debian bookworm
Debian 12 | KDE Plasma | ThinkPad T440s | 4 × Intel® Core™ i7-4600U CPU @ 2.10GHz | 12 GiB RAM | Mesa Intel® HD Graphics 4400 | 1 TB SSD

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#17 Post by sunrat »

greg9 wrote: 2021-09-19 07:57On IceWM I have

Code: Select all

free
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:         6025964      784072     4605280        9828      636612     4995576
Swap:        8191996           0     8191996

Desktop: IceWM 2.7.0 (on bookworm)...
Below is smoke and mirrors.....AKA spin doctoring.
The ratio of processes is 333/190 gives 1.75......so if multiply that factor by 5.75 g used for Ice we should use only 10G for KDE.
Me thinks KDE is inefficient as well
Huh? My posted free stats shows Plasma 5 using 455MB on boot. Methinks IceWM must be terribly inefficient to use 784MB! :mrgreen:
Of course we are comparing apples with oranges here. Each system will have a totally different set of startup programs, services, and drivers. As I mentioned, nvidia driver adds a couple of hundred MB by itself. And maybe different Plasma packages - I installed kde-plasma-desktop which is fairly minimal, unlike the huge kde-standard or kde-full metapackages.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#18 Post by sunrat »

oswaldkelso wrote: 2021-09-04 22:15...But Debian putting it as the defacto desktop is plain wrong imho. It should come with a warning or a check before inflicting this monster on unsuspecting new users. Rant over.
Agreed. I think there has been much developer discussion about this for the last at least 2 releases. There were reasons apparently but I don't recall what they were, maybe accessibility or Wayland. IMO KDE or Xfce would be a better default.

Would any Gnome users or DDs care to join the discussion?
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
NFT5
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 596
Joined: 2014-10-10 11:38
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#19 Post by NFT5 »

Hallvor wrote: 2021-09-19 09:28 Come on, flame me, but you know I am right.
Nope, no flaming from me. If you look at the extracts I put up, Plasma on Bullseye uses about 25% less RAM compared to Buster, which uses a similar amount to what sunrat mentioned he'd seen for Gnome. Plasma is getting better while Gnome is moving in the opposite direction. Before I upgraded this machine to a Ryzen 5 1600 and RAM to 16GB it had an FX8350 and 8GB. The difference was huge. For all those people out there who run older machines high overhead DEs like Gnome, and perhaps even Plasma, are just out of the question.

User avatar
Hallvor
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2020
Joined: 2009-04-16 18:35
Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 204 times

Re: Bonkers Gnome

#20 Post by Hallvor »

Agree, there are better options for older computers. Having tested different different desktop environments on an old computer a couple of years ago, only LXDE and TDE wasn't painfully slow.
[HowTo] Install and configure Debian bookworm
Debian 12 | KDE Plasma | ThinkPad T440s | 4 × Intel® Core™ i7-4600U CPU @ 2.10GHz | 12 GiB RAM | Mesa Intel® HD Graphics 4400 | 1 TB SSD

Post Reply