Debian Number One on Distrowatch?

[sickie]

kedaha: that doesn't mean Debian should be a sanctuary for newbies that wants everything served on a golden plate (and you need to appeal to that kind of users if you want to be #1) or disgruntled Ubuntu users.

[kedaha]

kedaha: that doesn't mean Debian should be a sanctuary for newbies that wants everything served on a golden plate (and you need to appeal to that kind of users if you want to be #1) or disgruntled Ubuntu users.

Have to agree with you there, but Debian could become slightly more popular with a few minor changes but not too popular at the cost of serving everything on a golden plate.
Let'em learn!

[BioTube]

Guys, we can compromise; a good-looking boot screen with all the informative text is possible. KMS, for example, provides native-resolution consoles automatically.

[nadir]

A wise man wrote:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 44#p297397

Bro.Tiag: That (messages with background. I would prefer naked people doing yoga, screaming and shouting like mad. I have seen it on the web) --- that is a thing i would be interested in. You got a link/how-to? Or the term i need to search for? I know some distros offer it, but always forget which ones.
BioTube: same question. A link/how-to something like that?

[sir fer]

Thank you for your comments because the discussion has helped me, and I hope others, to clarify a few matters.

You're welcome I'm enjoying this discussion too.

Because the boot messages are not a feature in Windows (or Ubuntu for that matter), and people don't expect to see them or use them. If more non-technical new users were to use Debian as a desktop system, the verbose screen perhaps ought to be replaced with a simple bootsplash screen similar to the grub menu or login screen with a key to activate the verbose mode if necessary. But this, and the incorporation of one or two other "popular" features is only relevant if we consider Debian as apt for use as a Desktop Environment system by anyone anywhere and not just the DIY users.

Well I am people and I want verbose startup messages. Knowledge is power. I agree that a simple bootsplash option would be good for the desktop user, but I also use debian on my server so feedback is essential. Computing has been about pretty GUIs for a relatively short time and IMO computing has suffered with the endless September we are now 'enjoying'. Also I think a basic desktop kernel configuration option could also be offered at install time as well, but I have a feeling the Debian developers are stretched far enough as it is and that's why real Debian comes as a pretty bare bones, but extremely reliable system. It's a simple case of function over form.

But Ubuntu and similar distros are doing a great job on the desktop front for the non-technical user who wants a desktop OS other than Windows or Mac.

That is highly debatable. Ubuntu suffers from bugs that would never be 'allowed' in a Debian Stable release.

If Debian, primarily for use as a server etc, is not suitable as a vehicle for popularising GNU/Linux, which I conclude from your comments, then it must be left to Ubuntu and similar distros to promote the general use of GNU/Linux and they seem to have been highly successful.
Great photo of Linus with the shirt btw.

The idea that the Ubuntu team is doing a great job is laughable at best. They are trying to steer their users into a similar paradigm as Microsoft uses. For this they can KMA, not to mention that their product is cruddy and crufty and their Xorg has memory leaks. They do very little bug testing (many bugs from sid are present in the latest Ubu release) and basically seem to do very little work towards improving the end product in general. For this, I cannot give them any respect as a decent distro and it would be a cold day in hell before I would recommend it to anybody.

[BioTube]

BioTube: same question. A link/how-to something like that?

If you've got a new enough kernel and supported hardware(2.6.33 or later for nouveau or radeon support), just add 'modeset=1' to the command line and make sure that fbcon and the driver's loaded before X starts(it takes time to initialize) and you'll get a native-resolution console. I don't know if the kernel supports setting a terminal wallpaper, though.

[Bro.Tiag]

Bro.Tiag: That (messages with background. I would prefer naked people doing yoga, screaming and shouting like mad. I have seen it on the web) --- that is a thing i would be interested in. You got a link/how-to? Or the term i need to search for? I know some distros offer it, but always forget which ones.
BioTube: same question. A link/how-to something like that?

Not sure if this still works with the newer kernels, but this is what I was referring to, bootsplash

Cheers

[nadir]

Thanks, Bro.Tiag and Biotube.

[kedaha]

Guys, we can compromise; a good-looking boot screen with all the informative text is possible. KMS, for example, provides native-resolution consoles automatically.

I found this link to a page, dated Nov.9 about KMS. Looks interesting...

[kedaha]

Well I am people and I want verbose startup messages. Knowledge is power. I agree that a simple bootsplash option would be good for the desktop user, but I also use debian on my server so feedback is essential. Computing has been about pretty GUIs for a relatively short time and IMO computing has suffered with the endless September we are now 'enjoying'. Also I think a basic desktop kernel configuration option could also be offered at install time as well, but I have a feeling the Debian developers are stretched far enough as it is and that's why real Debian comes as a pretty bare bones, but extremely reliable system. It's a simple case of function over form.

Yes, of course on a server one doesn't require any desktop stuff whatsoever. If the Debian developers have time, maybe they could introduce some kind of rudimentary bootsplash option in Squeeze just before its release as Stable for non-administrative desktop users.

The idea that the Ubuntu team is doing a great job is laughable at best. They are trying to steer their users into a similar paradigm as Microsoft uses. For this they can KMA, not to mention that their product is cruddy and crufty and their Xorg has memory leaks. They do very little bug testing (many bugs from sid are present in the latest Ubu release) and basically seem to do very little work towards improving the end product in general. For this, I cannot give them any respect as a decent distro and it would be a cold day in hell before I would recommend it to anybody.

To judge by their success they're doing a great job promoting their distro but not such a great job fixing bugs etc., as you say. IMO the forced release cycle and endless updates in Ubuntu and the defects you point out are the reasons why Debian should, with the addition of a few minor "popular" features, become a little more suitable for general use as a Desktop apart from its primary use as a server.

[Absent Minded]

As many people here have seen, I am not much of an Ubuntu fan. My opinion has been stated in a few places on this forum. Having said that, Ubuntu is trying to do something about their stability problem and I hope for the sake of the community at large that they manage to get it resolved.

I see Debian as a distro that attracts users that have a desire to learn about the OS that they use and while I would like to see the Debian community grow, I prefer to help people that are looking for a hand up rather than a hand out. I do however want the GNU/Linux/FOSS community as a whole to grow and dispell the myths that opensource is just for computer Gurus' to use.

My main objective related to this is for hardware manufactures to support their products for my choice of OS. While "some" are already doing this most are not. It is of course my desire for this support to be opensource but I would be relitively satisfied if they would even provide propriatary blobs (as it is said) for use with the Linux kernel.

Debian has a long standing reputation for being stable and having knowledgable users that are willing and capable of providing sound advice to the community. I for one don't want this reputation to change (at least in a negitive context). Unstable but highly publacized distros' either send people running back to their previous OS (normally Windows) or send their users looking for something more stable.

Debian (being the stable parrent as it were) gets a good many of these users. This is not a bad thing nessarly but many of these users do not care how their system works, just that it does work and so you have an influx of un-Linux-educated users that have no desire to learn anything filling the once reputable help forums. This often leads to the blind leading the blind and the degradation of once prominant and useful forums. Again, I am all for the community growing but to keep the quality standards from falling these new community members should be wanting to really learn about what they are using so they can become usefull and productive community members. IMO this is very important to a project like Debian and its' continued qualtity reputation.

Debian is last of the giant original distros to be non-commercial and I want it to remain non-commercial for the years to come. Keeping it's current reputation is a very critical to this plight (as I see it). So keeping the userbase knowledgable is a key aspect of Debian's reputation and continued succcess.

[sinical]

so bootsplash get's replaced by Splashy which eventually is replaced by USplash. Ergo, anyone can have a graphical splash screen, then again, debian is not for "everyone".

Ahh the sweet old days.. I'm bummed that splashy lost out, it was a piece of piss to get an image, munge some crappy xml progress bar on it and have a pretty bootup to login..

Then I tried to do the same with this usplash... Think I spent about 5 minutes on it before I said to myself the f**k am I using GCC for this crap here and gave up.. Least plymouth looks non-graphics-nerd friendlier

</tripdownmemorylane>

[cynwulf]

I don't really see a boot up splash as an issue. It's there for those that want it but for the rest of us that don't care, or want a plain old verbose startup, it's good not to have it to start with.

[kedaha]

Thank you for your replies.

I don't really see a boot up splash as an issue. It's there for those that want it but for the rest of us that don't care, or want a plain old verbose startup, it's good not to have it to start with.

I agree it's not an issue for experienced users; the real issue is Debian's popularity, not as a server, but as a Desktop system which could become suitable for more widespread general use, a role currently performed mainly by Ubuntu.But...

The idea that the Ubuntu team is doing a great job is laughable at best. They are trying to steer their users into a similar paradigm as Microsoft uses. For this they can KMA, not to mention that their product is cruddy and crufty and their Xorg has memory leaks. They do very little bug testing (many bugs from sid are present in the latest Ubu release) and basically seem to do very little work towards improving the end product in general. For this, I cannot give them any respect as a decent distro and it would be a cold day in hell before I would recommend it to anybody.

If not Debian or Ubuntu, what distribution would you recommend?
The addition of one or two optional popular features including a simple a boot splash, a media player which actually works (I suggested gecko-media player), and official installation from a live CD could help the novice. I'm not suggesting that this would make Debian the most popular distro but it would make it a little more friendly for new users who want a reliable and stable OS for everyday use like browsing the internet, using Open Office, learning to use applications such as GIMP etc.

[Absent Minded]

...If not Debian or Ubuntu, what distribution would you recommend?...

To me this varies greatly on the user and the cercumstances. If the perspective user seems eager to learn and can grasp Linux concepts I do recomend Debian. If it is a situation where I will be doing the majority of the system setup, again I recomend Debian. However, if I precieve that the prospective user is just looking for a replacement for Windows or Mac, just wants to "click and go" I will often recomend PCLinuxOS or to a lesser extent Mandriva (formerly Mandrake). As these distros can be adiquitly configured from GUI wizards, are fairly well known and are reasonably stable. Although installing additional RPMs after the install can still be a pain at times. I recomend PCLinuxOS over Mandriva due to Mandriva's change in attitude from being community minded to being commercial orented. Although I feel that this was caused mainly by the vast amounts of funds they had to payout in court costs "trying" to defend their original name. Mandrake's poloicy was the community comes first and originally over 95% of the money that came in from the public purchasing their books and installation media went back into supporting community projects to make Linux better. Although I don't have the stats. I do not believe this is the case with them any longer as they appear to be just as commercial as Red Hat thesedays. If someone has information regarding this, I am very interested in reading it over. I would love to find out that I am wrong. I pretty much quit paying attention to what was going on with them after they merged with OR were bought out by another company (I don't remember which it was any more).

[sir fer]

Thank you for your replies.[/qupte]

You're welcome

If not Debian or Ubuntu, what distribution would you recommend?

Probably openSUSE, it's quite nice-looking, friendly and usable but is a bit weighty for my hardware. Fedora is quite good as well, but Debian just scratches all my itches.

[sinical]

Fedora or opensuse, both are very nice and are different enough from Debian and its children.

[kedaha]

And what would you recommend for geeks who'd like something geekier? How about OpenBSD for example?

[refracta]

hurd!

[sossego]

plan9
or you could try some dead projects like the MIT exokernel and unununum <-- if I have that one right.