Part 2
Pls., take heed of what I'll tell you now:
I can access mostly anywhere on the internet now, except for I can't access the links below, such as:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00111.html
and any starting with that string:
lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/09/msg
of course with the http and :// in front,
(and that state has been lasting for more than --since first part, see the time there-- on every connection).
which I anyway have all of them in Iceweasel cache, so I *was able* to write this second part.
Just telling. Pls. do tell if the links don't point to the text reported.
#########################################################################
The titles were mostly:
systemd, again (Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing)
upgrades must not change the installed init system [was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]
and other
There was, first, announcement of Cinnamon, the Gnome fork, here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00111.html
Margarita Manterola wrote:
...[snip]...
cinnamon is now fully available in testing.
...[snip]...
And there followed simple questions and answers:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00130.html
Adam Borowski wrote:
On Thu, Sep 04, 2014 at 02:57:16PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
Margarita Manterola wrote:
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM, envite <envite at rolamasao dot org> wrote:
Adam Borowski wrote:
Does this Cinnamon for Debian include systemd ?
Yes, for Linux it includes systemd. For kFreeBSD it should be able to
work without systemd, but some packages haven't compiled yet due to
missing dependencies.
If Cinnamon can work without systemd, why is it a hard dependency?
But that conclusion is corrected and clarified by Cameron Norman:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00132.html
Cameron Norman wrote:
TL;DR `sudo apt-get install systemd-shim`
You are mistaken, it is not. What I suspect happened is that something
depended on logind (libpam-systemd) and libpam-systemd depends on
"systemd-sysv | systemd-shim". This means that systems will have their
init system switched even if unneeded unless they predict the issue or
track down the dependency tree, then learn they have to install
systemd-shim (which does not exist on Wheezy, so you will have to
install systemd-sysv then another init after the upgrade). This bug
has been reported and marked as WONTFIX for reasons that have not been
fully explained (it is claimed people with init=/lib/systemd/systemd
in their kcmdline will experience breakage due to systemd-shim
conflicting with systemd-sysv, however this is actually not likely at
all according to the shim maintainer).
Which is more than I can grasp. Also because I have a sysvinit system, and have removed not only systemd, but also dbus and other poetteringware from my system. (still yet to document what I did).
I don't want anyhing systemd, not even systemd-shim. I could settle for some of the alternatives suggested in:
http://boycottsystemd.org/
boycottsystemd.org wrote:
Disclaimer: We are not sysvinit purists by any means. We do recognize the need for a new init system in the 21st century, but systemd is not it.
...[snip]...
systemd alternatives include runit, OpenRC, s6, monit, perp, supervisord, Upstart and GNU dmd.
Is there or will there be place for me at all as Debian user?
I don't see that my option, no-poetteringware, will be viable. Reminder: it is on my Gentoo box, really no poetteringware, and system functional there (not much of a desktop though, but I don't care for those; it'd be great is some simple DE were there for no-poetteingware-whatsoever users like me, but not essential; essential is: privacy, but really).
But I can only follow what information I can get from where our systems are done in Debian. Means: back to debian-devel mail-list.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00145.html
Noel Torres wrote:
On Friday, 5 de September de 2014 09:57:34 Josselin Mouette escribió:
Josselin Mouette wrote:> Noel Torres wrote:
Noel Torres wrote:
So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user)
path.
Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?
No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies should
reflect that.
And from a purely functional point of view, it makes more sense to bring
by default the standard, upstream-supported, well-tested solution, than
the Debuntu-specific hack to use it with an inferior init system.
Cheers,
"Inferior" is your personal (and others) opinion. I do not think systemd being
clearly superior. It has better points that sysvinit but also worse points
(already extensively discussed). So that is not a reason to force users
install systemd when they are just upgrading their currently working systems.
So:
* standard: we chose so (against the opinion of a lot of people), nothing more
to discuss about that
* upstream-supported: not exclusive to systemd
* well-tested: not true. sysvinit is the well tested, and well known one
(including its quircks and lacks)
* superior: plain no
(This opinion was later, surely, attacked.)
If I remember correctly, Josselin Mouette was/is also one of the DDs that is preventing us users from having real so called "obsolete" FFmpeg in our systems, and it was all ready for inclusion last month. We would have been able to choose btwn FFmpeg and Avconv. Didn't happen (IIUC). Red Hat and Schmoogle must be happy!
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00184.html
The Wanderer wrote:
Some, only some of the discussion that followed:
On 09/05/2014 at 03:44 PM, Cameron Norman wrote:
Cameron Norman wrote:
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude}
subsystem not to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the
details of which I personally am not at all interested in), a
dist-upgrade should do so.
Currently, this is impossible, since systemd-shim DNE on Wheezy.
DNE=does not exist (IIUC)
But it should be possible to 'apt-get update ; apt-get install systemd-shim ; apt-get dist-upgrade', and AFAICT that should get the job done.
Alternately, it should be possible to pin systemd-sysv to "not installed", even when no such package as systemd-sysv exists - and then dist-upgrade should be able to figure out the necessary dependency resolution.
Which brings us to my issue again (and I hope other users will try and get a no-poetteringware-whatsoever system):
Will it be possible to pin down poetteringware (all of it), and install and use Debian, some basic packages, such as Iceweasel and, say, Mplayer/Mencoder and FFmpeg, less important: on some very basic DE?
I'm fighting for no-poetteringware not only for me, but for everybody, as an option in Debian.
One point I can't understand. It all worked up to now, but now there is this systemd-shim to save a user from systemd... Why can't it be viable to have a system without systemd-<whatever>, whatever=shim as well?
This fine analysis:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00206.html
Adam Borowski wrote:
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 11:12:35AM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
Noel Torres writes:
Noel Torres wrote:
So, in your POV, forcing millions of sysadmins out there to take extra pain to keep their systems running as they expect is the way to go?
I think it's fair to expect the few hundred people[1] that want to run a non-default init system to do so, yes.
[1] I can also make up numbers
Ok, so let's quantify the view of sysadmins somehow. This can actually be done in a meaningful way: let's count posts on places where technically-minded folks gather. There's plenty of minor blogs that are biased, but let's choose big sites where we can have a reasonable chance of being unbiased. I chose Slashdot and it's fork, SoylentNews.
Counting only posts above the default threshold for a non-logged-in user:
http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/09/01/1844249
(article about "Poettering's vision")
unrelated/no clear opinion: 3
anti-poettering: 10
anti-systemd in particular: 8
ambivalent: 1
pro: 0 !!!
http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/08/19/0841221
(article about systemd)
unrelated/no opinion: 12
pro: 1
anti: 15
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/09/0 ... n-my-linux
(article about systemd-caused schism)
unrelated/no opinion: 33
pro: 2
anti: 22
ambivalent: 4
That fine analysis above didn't get any of the DD pro-Red Hat poeple budge. What can?
In the followup, which is, IMO, too sick to report it here, Axel Wagner even doubts the identity of the posters on Slashdot. Gimme a break!
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00207.html
I guess I wouldn't have been able to reply this nicely to that message:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00208.html
Adam Borowski wrote:
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 03:02:06PM +0200, Axel Wagner wrote:
Axel Wagner wrote:
Moreover, you would need to not count posts, but unique posters, which will be a very hard to get, because in a lot of flames there are people who get one spam-address after the other, when they get blocked, which would further skew the numbers towards whichever camp has more disrespectfull trolls.
That's Slashdot not 4chan. The discussion there is mostly civil, and spam-posters immediately get moderated into oblivion. If you want your posts to show up, you need an established account rather than something newly created. Heck, in the methodology I used, the threshold was high enough that even an old account would require at least one up-mod to get counted.
Thus, Slashdot post count is more meaningful than, say, counting posts here on unmoderated debian-devel.
And nothing can help those people understand (just if they were selling their skills for some grease; pretence better than of the best actors': cool, happy for the future grease, some already in their pockets; no, I'm not accusing them, just telling that they act like politicians stealing, and while stealing, talking honey and milk in alternation with threats and laws, to people; but they really couln't be just plain witless, could they?).
Here Matthias Urlichs
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00211.html
talks how "most people" ... "are OK with systemd".
More talk. But I have to bring one of the persons with "merits" for all of us not having real FFmpeg in Debian, IIUC.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00291.html
Josselin Mouette wrote:
Adam Borowski wrote:
Adam Borowski wrote:
Ok, so let's quantify the view of sysadmins somehow. This can actually
be done in a meaningful way: let's count posts on places where
technically-minded folks gather. There's plenty of minor blogs that are
biased, but let's choose big sites where we can have a reasonable chance
of being unbiased. I chose Slashdot and it's fork, SoylentNews.
...[snip]...
...[snip]... Snip not shown in original. That is, Josslin is talking of the Slashdot and SoylentNews count done by Adam Borowski
Excuse me? Are you trying to use the fact that you and your stupid
friends are trolling about systemd all day long in order to justify your
own rants?
And I thought you couldn’t get any lower. You have a very good shovel.
Code: Select all
--
.''`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-
The logo should not be there. That's abuse of a fine honorable symbol, because this is hiding behind it. Red Hat and Schmoog must love her!
I too, signed underneath all my posts, I have lost terrible time trying to understand what I can do to keep my systems from poetteringware, which I hate, for reasons all around the net (reason not all around only if someone is either witless or in someone's pockets), and (which I hate) because it already cost me nerves hugely.
And I'm fighting for no-poetteringware options for all as well. Not just me.
What do you want, dismiss me as fool too? What kind of language is that? And from a DD?
She got a fine reply:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00297.html
Jakub Wilk wrote:
* Josselin Mouette, 2014-09-08, 10:58:
Josselin Mouette wrote:
Excuse me? Are you trying to use the fact that you and your stupid friends are trolling about systemd all day long in order to justify your own rants?
And I thought you couldn’t get any lower. You have a very good shovel.
OTOH, a hydraulic excavator must have been involved in writing your mail.
Can we now all go back to the ground level? (Or higher?!)
This mail is so polite:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00421.html
Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
Hi!
Yes, please... I vote +1 for not silently replace sysvinit by systemd, when upgrading from Debian 7, to 8.
...[snip]...
Also, the current Populatiry Contest is unfair, because it shows systemd winning, when it is being pushed.
...[snip]...
Also, providing two init systems during Debian 8 cycle (or until kFreeBSD remains around), will calm down people all over the world.
...[snip]...
But, those mentioned before, and others of their kind, will probably say that it is not representative.
That is by a non-expert user.
And here's one by an expert/advanced user.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00360.html
Samuel Thibault wrote:
Ondřej Surý wrote:
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 13:10:48 +0200, a écrit :
And I'm saying that all we have is anecdotal evidence
Our uni lab has switched to systemd, 20% of the machines do not boot.
The admin is currently looking at what the difference could be between
them to expain such a difference (same hardware, supposed-to-be same
software installation).
But I remember as I make another example in my attempt at contributing to getting users more of a chance for remaining with freer Debian, I remember how that DD wrote previously. I hope I'll find it. It's very educational.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00343.html
Samuel Thibault wrote:
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried to
implement auto-migration of the old default mailer's configuration to the
new one. Also, we didn't switch to a different default mailer because the
new one offered a heap of features and infrastructure which the other
lacked.
None of this applies to systemd.
This does apply to systemd too.
When I got "upgraded" to systemd on july, my system was completely
misbehaving for several reasons related to my configuration:
- I had an ISO mount in my fstab, whose file didn't exist any more,
sysvinit never complained about it, systemd just stopped at boot.
- I had several bind mounts, forming loops, which has never been a
problem for sysvinit, but it made systemd take ages to boot & shutdown
because it'd crazily bring thousands of lines in /proc/mounts, details
in #755674.
- I had tweaks in /etc/inittab to get the gettys earlier than
daemon starts, in case those get stuck etc., this does not work any
more with systemd.
- I had tweaks in /etc/inittab to have more gettys on the text console,
this does not work with systemd any more.
- I had tweaks in /etc/inittab to shutdown instead of reboot when I
press ctrl-alt-backspace, this does not work with systemd any more.
If I had tweaks in /etc/inittab to enable serial consoles, would the
upgrade to systemd kept them working? I haven't found code about this.
This is *especially* important for servers, for which that might be the
only way to access the system without having to take the bike to get to
the datacenter.
Of course, these are all bugs that could be fixed in systemd. I however
doubt we can discover (and fix) them all for Jessie, and I strongly
doubt that the first item of my list (which is more a difference of
behavior than a bug) will be ever be fixed actually.
If it ain't broken, don't break it.
On which recount there were further followups.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00347.html
Samuel Thibault wrote:
Ondřej Surý wrote:
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 11:47:38 +0200, a écrit :
And you are saying that you can do all those tweaks, but you cannot
pin systemd-sysv to not install?
No, I'm saying that if I hadn't noticed "systemd" among the upgrades, I would have gotten all these changes all of a sudden without asking for them. That can be pretty bad for the serial console access.
And I'm saying that I don't think this is an isolated case, I believe most our users prefer to stay with sysvinit when upgrading from wheezy to jessie, at least to keep the behavior of their machine as it is, and then consider switching to systemd. Collapsing both is asking for regressions and angry users...
Are you reading this, DDs?:
Samuel Thibault wrote:
...(they already tell me bad Debian jokes about the upgrade to systemd).
You realy want to get Debian to become all the more the target of bad jokes?
And on and on it goes. Someone there is in the pockets of... This much is not being plain witless.
Time to quote IgnorantGuru...
I repeat my stance from a previous post in this topic that the title of this article below is flawed ("Julian Assange: Debian Is Owned By The NSA"). Not really untruthful, since not completely false, but neither completely right, I would certainly believe. That title was wrong tactically. Very few writers don't make such mistakes sooner or later.
The denial:
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/454246967124963328
WikiLeaks wrote:
Glyn Moody wrote:
@wikileaks: a question - did you really say "Debian Is Owned By The NSA"? -
@glynmoody None of our people said this. Mr. Assange spoke about vulnerability of OS's to bribes and bugdoors in upstream components.
But most of IgnorantGuru's talk is just about right.
Julian Assange: Debian Is Owned By The NSA
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04 ... y-the-nsa/
Where reads how:
IgnorantGuru wrote:
[Julian] discussed ...[snip]... how encryption can level the playing field between powerful governments and people, and about 20 minutes into his address, he discussed how UNIX-like systems like Debian ...[snip]... are engineered by nation-states with backdoors which are easily introduced as ‘bugs’, and how the Linux system depends on thousands of packages and libraries that may be compromised.
Then he recommends:
watching his 36 minute Q&A in its entirety, keeping in mind my recent warnings about how GNU/Linux is almost entirely engineered by the government/military-affiliated Red Hat corporation
That is:
Julian Assange - Q&A - 2014-04-02 (English)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFFTYRWB0Tk
He goes on to say:
Assange mentions how Debian famously botched the SSH random number generator for years (which was clearly sabotaged). Speaking of botched security affecting Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, SuSE, *BSD, and more, the nightmarish OpenSSL recently botched SSL again ...[snip]...
And he gave another recommendation, which I am thankful to have been given the opportunity to have, to learn more on the then latest matter.
For more on how OpenSSL is a nightmare, and why this bug is one among many that will never be found, listen to FreeBSD developer Poul-Heening Kamp’s excellent talk at the FOSDEM BSD conference.
and that is:
http://video.fosdem.org/2014/Janson/Sun ... eport.webm
IgnorantGuru wrote:
From the start, my revelations on this blog about Red Hat’s deep control of Linux, along with their large corporate/government connections, hasn’t been just about spying, but about losing the distributed engineering quality of Linux, with Red Hat centralizing control.
Yet ...[snip]... as soon as I started using Linux years ago, I noted that all the major distributions used watered-down encryption ...[snip]... This told me then that those who controlled distributions were deeply in the pockets of intelligence networks.
And his conclusion is:
So it comes as no surprise to me that they jumped on board systemd when told to, despite the mock choice publicized to users – there was never any option.
To me, his conclusions sound plausible.
And yet, legally, if they are doing so, they are breaking the law. While my reproducing here his words is perfectly in compliance with the rights given to me as user, perfectly in compliance with Debian Social Contract, and the law, of the U.S.A. where Debian is based, and of EU where I live.
What can be done? Nothing without proof, and I have none. You can't get any proofs of mere maliciosness, let alone corruption, bribes, intimidation in matters of OpenSSL, and yet it all soooo stinks!!!
You can't get any proof of systemd and poetteringware programmers planting bugs.
A world class expert probably could, but surely with huge effort, only discover mere typoes and/or other mistakes of whichever kind, that, effectively, somehow backdoor your system; But even if you discovered those, you could not prove them to be by design.
Honest world class experts probably could uncover bugdoors in poetteringware, and such bugdoors will not be other than very likely to have been deliberately introduced, with the backdooring purpose, if such functionality of some of those bugs ends up backdooring you system...
But to discover and confirm that, we need work of honest people like Grsecurity devs, like PHK, also like some of our honest Debian devs, sorry I don't trust all, we need the work of people like those fine Finns from pages linked from IgnorantGuru's page above who uncovered the Heartbleed...
Still, even once the backdoors in poetteringware is discovered, which I'm confident it will happen, there wouldn't be any proof before the court of law. All that we would get, again, is just proof of "typoes" and "honest mistakes"!
And you can imaging who is throwing money and bying brains to create bugdoors on us. Not repeating those names.
What to say in the end of this two part recount of some of the discussions about our Debian machines of tomorrow, dear friend, on debian-devel mail-list?
Do something about it, dear reader.
I've so far really done as much as I could. I spent weeks on this, to try and contribute to preventing of these frankestein changes. I'm out of breath and exhausted and broken a little. And sad, very sad. Remember I believed in {G../Linux}, and I can't even call it that anymore.
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr