Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

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pylkko
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#21 Post by pylkko »

pawRoot wrote:
It will die same as Windows phones.
This is a pretty meaningless statement, in my opinion. That is, if this statement is supposed to mean that for the same reasons as Windows phones died, Librem 5 will also fail. Given that the audiences are different, the companies are different in in many you can think to measure companies, the devs have completely different aspirations and ideas and... heck, can you think of anything that is not different in these two scenarios??? how would you ever prove this is the case. Even if it fails, you would not be able to claim with a straight face that you know for sure that it failed "because of the same reasons as Windows phones".
makh wrote: ...If they do provide something as FOSS drivers and the major distros "mobile installation images", only then it may have more chance of survival ...
If with "drivers" you mean "kernel modules", then I believe they say in that interview that all the kernel code is mainlined. Mainlined means that it will be in the "base" kernel that you can download from kernel.org. This means that they don't need to provide anything at all. When they said that they will aim to make their own code freely available, I believe they were referring to user space programs (apps) that will be on the OS.

An interesting differnece with this and Ubuntu touch is that Ubuntu was sold on devices originally designed for Android. Because of this, when users got bored, they flashed Android back on them. Librem 5, however, has hardware that has never previously been used in a phone. This makes it sound like you most likely will not be able to replace the OS with Android if you want later. Maybe you might be able to tweak a custom AOSP image somehow, but you would have to develop the entire thing.

The baseband processor and GPS will contain closed proprietary firmware (and the law mandates that). But they are going to be hardware kill-switched. If it kill the entire modem/baseband, then perhaps it kills the SIM also.

Somebody points out that the SIM card itself has a microcontroller with RAM and all. It should be noted that sd-cards also have often several processors and their own RAM.

This e-sim stuff sounds pretty bad to me. That you would have a SIM that you cannot remove, essentially...


Also, did anyone else notice that Samsung made an announcement that they are going out with a Linux smart phone almost exactly after the Librem 5 project managed to get the funding? Apparently it will run their OS but you will be able to run Desktop Linux distributions in some emulation or some such.

n_hologram
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#22 Post by n_hologram »

pylkko wrote:Even if it fails, you would not be able to claim with a straight face that you know for sure that it failed "because of the same reasons as Windows phones".
+1
An interesting differnece with this and Ubuntu touch is that Ubuntu was sold on devices originally designed for Android. Because of this, when users got bored, they flashed Android back on them. Librem 5, however, has hardware that has never previously been used in a phone. This makes it sound like you most likely will not be able to replace the OS with Android if you want later. Maybe you might be able to tweak a custom AOSP image somehow, but you would have to develop the entire thing.
I never understood why this wasn't incentive to continue the project, though, as it seems most Linux/BSD systems are the result of understanding how to maximize old technology. When they announced this project, I initially foresaw people forking Ubuntu Phone/Touch into a (subjectively) "better" system, one geared towards specific interests and goals, rather than "Android: Ubuntu Edition"...alas.
The baseband processor and GPS will contain closed proprietary firmware (and the law mandates that). But they are going to be hardware kill-switched. If it kill the entire modem/baseband, then perhaps it kills the SIM also.
Somebody points out that the SIM card itself has a microcontroller with RAM and all. It should be noted that sd-cards also have often several processors and their own RAM.
I really like that they'll killswitch those features.
I was the one who made the SIM comment, btw. My concern stems from an innate distrust that major carriers won't soon (if they're not already) ship-out spyware to track more than they currently already know. Since Verizon or the ilk don't control my sdcard, I might have different concerns about its hardware vulnerabilities (I recall several NSA projects that can already do this), but not the same ones that apply to a SIM.
This e-sim stuff sounds pretty bad to me. That you would have a SIM that you cannot remove, essentially...
+12. This would put the ax to the throat of most pay-as-you-go carriers that advertise to work on "unlocked" phones. Not to mention it would require a refurbished or replacement phone when the module breaks. It makes sense that Apple utilizes it -- their entire framework is customer support, because they only have a handful of hardware/software. If ever this became standardized technology, I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be quite appalled.
Also, did anyone else notice that Samsung made an announcement that they are going out with a Linux smart phone almost exactly after the Librem 5 project managed to get the funding? Apparently it will run their OS but you will be able to run Desktop Linux distributions in some emulation or some such.
Lol, leave it up to Samsung to produce the grindhouse equivalent of a great idea...

Btw, I think it's worth noting that the closest thing to a truly "secure" smartphone (in the way that librem is advertised) is an old grandpa phone, and behind that, a landline, and behind that, a telegraph, and...
Last edited by n_hologram on 2017-10-30 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
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pawRoot
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#23 Post by pawRoot »

This is a pretty meaningless statement, in my opinion. That is, if this statement is supposed to mean that for the same reasons as Windows phones died, Librem 5 will also fail. Given that the audiences are different, the companies are different in in many you can think to measure companies, the devs have completely different aspirations and ideas and... heck, can you think of anything that is not different in these two scenarios??? how would you ever prove this is the case. Even if it fails, you would not be able to claim with a straight face that you know for sure that it failed "because of the same reasons as Windows phones".
What i meant is that it will die like any other mobile project out there, i didn't mean it will die for same reasons as Windows phone.
Another thing is it will be probably overpriced piece of crap (hardware wise) , i don't see how they could get competitive prices for their hardware with so small customer base.

And looking at the pictures on their site they can't even get a propher graphic designer , instead their icons look like from 90s lol.
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n_hologram
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#24 Post by n_hologram »

pawRoot wrote:What i meant is that it will die like any other mobile project out there, i didn't mean it will die for same reasons as Windows phone.
Another thing is it will be probably overpriced piece of crap (hardware wise) , i don't see how they could get competitive prices for their hardware with so small customer base.
Do you think it's possible that they intend to cater to the 1-2% of users who really want the product, instead of trying to compete with established companies -- as has always been the Linux trend? It is, after all, a crowdfunded -- community -- project. For instance, you made a jab at the icons; have you ever looked at the icons that ship with Linux? Many of them are godawful (ie, Tango), but that doesn't stop people from committing themselves to the project -- or, more importantly, the idea behind the project.

Again, it goes back to selling a meaningful idea, not an imitation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0HIF3SfI4
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
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pawRoot
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#25 Post by pawRoot »

n_hologram wrote:
pawRoot wrote:What i meant is that it will die like any other mobile project out there, i didn't mean it will die for same reasons as Windows phone.
Another thing is it will be probably overpriced piece of crap (hardware wise) , i don't see how they could get competitive prices for their hardware with so small customer base.
Do you think it's possible that they intend to cater to the 1-2% of users who really want the product, instead of trying to compete with established companies -- as has always been the Linux trend?
I would say Linux userbase is mostly people who don't want to spend money on software or "overpriced" hardware.
I don't see many people willing to buy such product for a high price with low quality hardware (comparing to companies like Samsung).
So yes, it might be successful project as long as successful for you means selling product to a very small group of people?

As i said, depends what success means to you.
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n_hologram
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#26 Post by n_hologram »

I never said it would be about selling a neat product. I said it would be about selling an excellent idea; watch the video. That's where I see librem shifting from pitches like Meemo, Ubuntu Touch, FirefoxOS, and Windows Phone.

Applying a corporatist belief in "success" to an open-source, community-based interpretation, seems inappropriate, so, yeah, I think it would be a good idea to expand the definition of success in the context of an open-source product. I also think it would be a good idea to poll why die-hard open-source enthusiasts use open-source systems; we don't need to buy prism laptops to get Debian on a working, stable system that happens to be outdated, but right now, that's close to impossible on the mobile device market.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

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pawRoot
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#27 Post by pawRoot »

n_hologram wrote:I never said it would be about selling a neat product. I said it would be about selling an excellent idea; watch the video. That's where I see librem shifting from pitches like Meemo, Ubuntu Touch, FirefoxOS, and Windows Phone.

Applying a corporatist belief in "success" to an open-source, community-based interpretation, seems inappropriate, so, yeah, I think it would be a good idea to expand the potential for a "successful" project. I also think it would be a good idea to poll why die-hard open-source enthusiasts use open-source products.
Don't get me wrong i am a big fan of open source, thats why i am a Debian user...

Although from my experience idea is NOTHING, execution is what matters.
I have bad feeling about this project as i had about many others that died long time ago, but i guess time will tell :D

Oh and there is nothing excellent about the idea too in my opinion, another thing is less and less people care about tracking and all that stuff.
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pawRoot
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#28 Post by pawRoot »

have you ever looked at the icons that ship with Linux? Many of them are godawful (ie, Tango), but that doesn't stop people from committing themselves to the project -- or, more importantly, the idea behind the project.
You are comparing commercial product to free open source system in which probably 90% or more users customize it anyway because it sucks out of the box (the reason is its lead by people without vision or good marketing understanding, but rather by developers)
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n_hologram
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#29 Post by n_hologram »

pawRoot wrote:Although from my experience idea is NOTHING, execution is what matters.
Yeah...so, I would research the history of Linux, and the history of Devuan, before I continue further...
Oh and there is nothing excellent about the idea too in my opinion, another thing is less and less people care about tracking and all that stuff.
Again, one must consider who is discussed when "people" are discussed. If this comes back to the average consumer, as I implied, I seriously doubt the average consumer will take any interest. If it comes down to the
n_hologram wrote:1-2%
of people committed to the open-source philosophy (as is the trend of the Linux userbase), however, I foresee a greater opportunity for something that resembles either a small movement, an opposition, or, at the very least, a chance for me to manage my phone how I want to. There's also practical grievances -- for example, the way android manages sdcard mounting. It's horrid. That alone will be reason enough to put some money aside for the next couple of years and invest.

For me, and for a lot of users, a big reason to invest is the idea of freedom to control my device -- which, in my opinion, is excellent. Android can't offer me the same kind of freedom, and I don't need the latest-and-greatest phone -- it is, after all, just a phone -- to achieve this. In our age of information apathy and neglect, a freedom-oriented mobile device constitutes a pretty profound idea. And you can't really put a price tag on that -- one way or another, we are bound to pay.
You are comparing commercial product to free open source system in which probably 90% or more users customize it anyway because it sucks out of the box (the reason is its lead by people without vision or good marketing understanding, but rather by developers)
I literally have no idea what your argument is here, as these seem like two mutually exclusive beliefs, and ones which ignore the points several members have already brought up -- which disincentivizes me from continuing this conversation. Can you clarify?
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
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pawRoot
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#30 Post by pawRoot »

Yeah...so, I would research the history of Linux, and the history of Devuan, before I continue further...
I don't see any correlation in this case, since first product is free open source system that you can install even on "calculator", on the other hand you have overpriced HARDWARE that you have to spend alot of money on, just for the idea of "no tracking".
For me, and for a lot of users, a big reason to invest is the idea of freedom to control my device
What is alot of users?

Linux only has like 1% of market share? now out of this 1% how many people are ready to pay for overpriced hardware just to not be tracked? another 1% ?

Another thing is how many years it took linux to get this 1%? 20? 30?

This all would make sense to me if you could install it easily on any phone, not just 1.
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#31 Post by n_hologram »

pawRoot wrote:HARDWARE
Here's a workable point -- a lot of phone hardware is not open-source; skim the lineageos compatibility list (you'll also notice that many of those phones are outdated). The crux is that they work really well for Android, because the AOSP supplemented a lot of development. Not so for Linux. Yes, I have been waiting for Debian ARM on my phone, but then we're back to "who is going to develop it," and I'm not a developer. Whereas, with this phone, it might only be "1 device", but I implore you to ask yourself, research, and report your findings, even in light of the LineageOS-compatible phone list: why hasn't it been done yet?

If this singular is the next best, then in my opinion, so be it. I prefer that over nothing.

The rest of your argument reads like pandering for the belief that it will never become a commercial success like iOS or Android; I'm not sure how much bait I'm willing to take.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#32 Post by pawRoot »

Ok just lets end the discussion here, im sorry but im not here to teach you logical thinking, have better things to do.

Cheers
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#33 Post by n_hologram »

I'm disappointed to have earned an ad hominem, but open-source doesn't mean "free as in free mints." Someone has to pay for something somehow: whether through work or through money. A true GNU/Linux system is currently unavailable on android devices -- and it has been unavailable since, well, Android (circa 2008).

A positive way of framing this is that I think you might stand a pretty good chance of beating-out the librem phone if you want to develop and crowdfund an Android alternative for Android devices.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
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pylkko
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#34 Post by pylkko »

I never understood why this wasn't incentive to continue the project, though, as it seems most Linux/BSD systems are the result of understanding how to maximize old technology. When they announced this project, I initially foresaw people forking Ubuntu Phone/Touch into a (subjectively) "better" system, one geared towards specific interests and goals, rather than "Android: Ubuntu Edition"...alas.
The project is being continued by volunteers. But I guess the reason why there is no massive forking of the project is that it works on but a few phone models, which are out of production I might add, and there are many other AOSP based custom ROMs that are more popular and can use android apps.

Remember also that when people began using Linux on PC's, in the early days they had to make sacrifices. For example, maybe WiFi wad only proprietary, so they used an Ethernet card, or changed hardware parts to get it to work. It was still usable for some purpose, say a server. Also, on PC's much of the hardware initialization was done by OS independent BIOS chips.

This is not the case on phones, people are not willing to sacrifice the phone modem or GPS on a phone. Such a phone is no longer usable. Linux form arm has existed and could be used to boot on phones from the start. But that's about it, so what are you going to do with it? Also, these are SOC's. If you don't like the nonfree WIfI module, you can't just switch to another more FOSS friendly networking method or device.

The only way it can work is by having a special hardware platform for just that purpose. I believe that is what they are trying to get off the ground here.
pawRoot wrote:I would say Linux userbase is mostly people who don't want to spend money on software or "overpriced" hardware.
I don't see many people willing to buy such product for a high price with low quality hardware (comparing to companies like Samsung).
So yes, it might be successful project as long as successful for you means selling product to a very small group of people?
Yet they managed to get two million dollars for this already...

Also, with all likelyhood, if they manage to get the project off the ground, then future iterations will be less expensive.

Interestingly a lot of activity has been going on in the etnaviv (free gpu) project lately.

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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#35 Post by pawRoot »

Yet they managed to get two million dollars for this already...
Some people spend more on a weekend in Vegas ;)
Actually there was ALOT of projects on kickstarter that raised millions just to die some time later.

Anyway my point is 2millions in "technology" is nothing, but i would like to have portable full version of Debian on my phone, i wont say no :D
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#36 Post by makh »

Hi

1. It is strange that Redhad, Suse, and Ubuntu have their desktop versions, but dont market them strongly. Ubuntu may have succeeded in the desktop/laptop, but theres some gap, like @n_hologram pointed: perhaps marketing in the Steve Jobs way.

2. Linux distros missed out on mobiles till now, for one or another reason, and android got it.

3. I do suppose Liberism should market on one point: security, others definitely dont give it yet. It would be more than linux user base, provided it is easy to use with basic apps, atleast.

4. "Linux idea" should be promoted in one more way: FSF and Debian Organizations should offer Certifications for code analysis, to be security qualified.

5. Purism should have offered a low priced stuff also.

---

Edit 1:

6. An open hardware manufacturers, especially for processors, better than intel & amd will hopefully benefit, some day.
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pawRoot
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#37 Post by pawRoot »

perhaps marketing in the Steve Jobs way.
Marketing & leading, as i said previously linux world is lead by developers and not people with vision, which is the problem (IMO!).
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#38 Post by RU55EL »

makh wrote:[...]2. Linux distros missed out on mobiles till now, for one or another reason, and android got it.[...]
While Android is not Linux, but, it is based on the Linux kernel. "Linux" didn't miss out, Google used good sense and didn't try to "re-invent the wheel" when they could use something, such as Linux, without having to develop a system from zero.

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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#39 Post by debiman »

...it all boils down to how you define "success" or "failure" ...
it seems some people in this thread think that every single small startup company in this world is a bunch of idiots, because they just don't get how big business works...
:roll:

anyhow, i'll just leave this here:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... sm#p654532

and
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... sm#p654479

and of course that whole other thread:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=134456

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pylkko
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Re: Will a Debian Mobile be a success?

#40 Post by pylkko »

pawRoot wrote:
Yet they managed to get two million dollars for this already...
Some people spend more on a weekend in Vegas ;)
Actually there was ALOT of projects on kickstarter that raised millions just to die some time later.

Anyway my point is 2millions in "technology" is nothing, but i would like to have portable full version of Debian on my phone, i wont say no :D
Can you give any examples of those projects?

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