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Love the spirit of this forum

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donald
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#21 Post by donald »

Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-03 09:46
donald wrote: 2022-10-02 22:42 Asking about securing SSH with fail2ban is a question that could be answered fairly easily but may be complex for someone who is asking (the question) about it, especially regarding some of the other means of securing a server. Iptables can be daunting, fail2ban is a great option, sshguard is another option ... and so on. Depending on the users experience they might not even understand how to ask the question.
I mostly agree. However, giving blank statements to a beginner, without us knowing anything about their system, and without them getting a basic understanding of their own system, is a disservice to anyone running a server.
We are all mostly in agreement here than disagreement. I do think pasting commands and stuff to a new person who doesn't know what they are doing or HOW to apply the advice can be dangerous.
Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-03 09:46
donald wrote: 2022-10-02 22:42 It is the line in the sand. Looking over some of the older posts it seems most users here have given a RTFM answer at some point. After the administration change last year all users were suggested to read the updated/new rules which made it clear those past behaviours were no longer welcome here. These are not rules me and not for thee, these guidelines are for everyone, users, moderators, and administrators.
Those were the times. I actually showed interest in GNU/Linux the first time in 1998. Back then there was very little info online (that I could find), so I headed over to the #debian IRC channel, asked a question and immediately got two RTFM-replies, without anyone ever telling me what fm to r.
I had the same experience with that crowd many years ago. People weren't very nice. At ALL.
Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-03 09:46 Having first hand experience with it, I can honestly say that it wasn't even remotely helpful. But please assume good faith on my part here, as I'm trying to understand the little nuances: There is a stickied thread in this very forum that pretty much says RTFM/do your own research before asking. Is this just an anachronistic relic, or is it still allowed to link to it? If Segfault had simply pasted that link in the thread, would that be OK?
Yes linking to that thread would have been ideal. I do it. Linked above.

Relic maybe. I think we have far too many stickies here and people gloss over them ideally it should be:
* Forum Announcements (current)
* Forum Guidelines
-Original Forum Announcement - removed
-Debian COC could be linked to in the Guidelines thread
* What we expect.
-Don't reply to spam -removed
Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-03 09:46
donald wrote: 2022-10-02 22:42 There is a lot that occurs in the background but things can be missed with each staff member having different hours/time zones or time commitments, hitting the report button will definitely get the post noticed and the user made aware of the issue. If you or anyone has an issue with a mod/admin that you cannot work out send me a PM.
When you first came here, I was very pleased to have a Debian developer here, and I was hoping that we'd finally get someone who participated more actively. I think it suffices to say that a lot of stuff has happened here lately that never got reported and you obviously never saw. Arbitrariness is never popular, and if you want to make a change, please spend more time here, or find someone who will.
I'm here more often than you think, mainly in the background or the admin area, but do a lot of reading rather than posting. The administrators/moderators here do a lot of work also in the background like stopping us from getting overridden by spammers, fake accounts, checking IPs, and just as importantly: Sending PMs to users about their comments or tones ... they tend to do it in the background and I in the foreground.

Again I'd express that I can miss things, if there is any issue going on and you think that I personally need to see it or attend to it, send me a PM or email, but you guys also need to use the report button so that the staff doesn't miss things. We do see the reports.

To your other point, I will post more and be more visible.
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cynwulf

Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#22 Post by cynwulf »

donald wrote: 2022-10-04 00:45"Sounds like homework" sounds like I'm giving you a snarky answer instead of ... just not responding to the thread. Not responding to that type of thread would have been the easiest.
Any perceived "snark" is really down to the reader. I took that comment as a statement of fact and a flagging up of what they perceived as a homework question and nothing more.

If they had said "Is this a homework question?", would you have issued an infraction?

I have found countless examples (some days ago), of "homework" responses, most are actually chastisement, some more scathing than others. Some of those come across as what you're talking about - Segfault's does not.

The culture of this forum, is not to just go around reporting everything. You will have trouble changing that and you will probably lose a lot of the best contributors if attempting to force it though or use it as a precedent for any corrective action. That previous administration I mentioned also took a "there is a report button" approach and that didn't end well at all.

There is also a fallacy in replying to reports - in that you're focused on a few specific incidents that the reporter wishes to highlight (perhaps due to a grudge or dislike) and you miss many more (the majority). Observation, which comes from participation is the best.

In the ideal world, perhaps users would not respond to threads unless they had something positive to say. The reality is that people are people and that this site is obviously not a paid technical support help desk. People often will respond regardless, and a "negative" comment can result in something positive.

Equally positive intent can result in wholesale destruction - i.e a very "helpful" but inexperienced user could guide someone into wrecking their system and losing data, whereas a more negative and plain speaking user may prevent that. You can neither predict nor prevent the outcome - you have to let things proceed.

What you have to be wary of here is a repeat of 2011, where that previous administration threw the baby out with the bath water.
donald wrote: 2022-10-04 00:45It's also just as easy to pop into a thread and point a bad question to the How to ask your question thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=152765 than it is to not respond to the type of thread.
I don't see that as being very far removed from "google it" or "RTFM". I've seen users who are directed to such threads getting in a grump on other sites, many times.

Again this is all about perceptions - but from my point of view, being referred to a "how to ask a question" thread seems condescending.

Regarding homework questions specifically - I think that's more of a moral dilemma and should not be covered by any forum rules. It should be up to individual users. Personally, I don't help with those, nor some incompetent who clearly wants you to bail them out with some work related task so that they can go back to their boss and get a pat on the back. I for one appreciate other users flagging those up.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#23 Post by canci »

I've been here on and off since 2005ish (I think?). What I've always enjoyed is that Debian, the OS as well as the community, aren't pretending to be a commercial product when they're not. This means that some of the extra indulgence you'd get from a company's employer who will treat you like royalty even though you just insulted them, won't be present here. And I've seen time and time again where people come over from Windows or Mac and expect mostly voluntary run software and communities to be just that: To indulge them in their laziness or ignorance and infantilise them. Some communities have done that, others have chosen to be super passive-aggressive about it and ban/shadow ban users etc. I actually prefer the very adult and empowering way of someone telling me: "No, Debian Testing is not a rolling release distro."/"You haven't paid me for tech support, so I expect you to have googled the basics or at least told us your specs." -- Because that's the most solidarity and friendship one can offer: Giving someone the tools to be independent and self-sufficient, not tying them to golden cages that only work when and how the author of the software wants it. The freedom free software gave us is a gift, but also a responsibility, a power; and I love how members in these forums directly tell you this.

To use an analogy: Debian isn't McDonald's. It's more like this huge event organised by friends where everyone already prepared and cooked the meal. There isn't a huge choice of addictive engineered food for you to stuff down the hatch, there's a hearty soup and maybe a dessert that aren't made to enable all your taste buds, but are rather an acquired taste that's good for your body in the long run. And yes, you came in late and couldn't chip in with the "programming" of the soup, but at least you can just help yourself to a plate and pour it in, later wash your plate, help with cleaning up -- and maybe thank everyone for cooking. Yes, you might tell them later over a drink that it could have needed more salt, but you won't be a manchild about it and throw tantrums like you would at McDonald's, or you are out for good. xD And if the community as a whole said, they don't want to cook with a lot of trans fats (proprietary software :D ), then you just respectfully get out and look for another community. And if you want to have more say in it, then you read up on some recipes and show up earlier next time, so you can have a say in the decision process.

Now... Are there sometimes comments that are both direct and maybe a bit insulting or written in a bad tone (which is culturally subjective anyway)? Yes, no one is perfect. But I don't think that's the norm.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#24 Post by Bulkley »

Well said, canci.

There is a responsibility attached to running Testing or Unstable. A user has to know how Debian works, how to troubleshoot when things go south and file bug reports. Testing and Unstable are not for newbies.

Troubleshooting is almost an art form. Helping someone unseen at a distance is by its very nature awkward. We try.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#25 Post by donald »

cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-06 13:36
donald wrote: 2022-10-04 00:45"Sounds like homework" sounds like I'm giving you a snarky answer instead of ... just not responding to the thread. Not responding to that type of thread would have been the easiest.
Any perceived "snark" is really down to the reader. I took that comment as a statement of fact and a flagging up of what they perceived as a homework question and nothing more.

If they had said "Is this a homework question?", would you have issued an infraction?
No, but I would have told him to be more helpful in his future posting especially in the light of the following replies to the thread being helpful.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-06 13:36 I have found countless examples (some days ago), of "homework" responses, most are actually chastisement, some more scathing than others. Some of those come across as what you're talking about - Segfault's does not.

The culture of this forum, is not to just go around reporting everything. You will have trouble changing that and you will probably lose a lot of the best contributors if attempting to force it though or use it as a precedent for any corrective action. That previous administration I mentioned also took a "there is a report button" approach and that didn't end well at all.

There is also a fallacy in replying to reports - in that you're focused on a few specific incidents that the reporter wishes to highlight (perhaps due to a grudge or dislike) and you miss many more (the majority). Observation, which comes from participation is the best.
Reporting just highlights something that a user would like someone to take a look at, most times little action is needed and if so it is addressed.

I'm having ZERO trouble. As mentioned earlier we do a lot in the background that you do not see. You speak to the culture of the forum while not seeing that troubled users that trolled here and were malicious, no longer post here and are no longer disruptive. The highlights of those users came to the staff through the reporting system which is employed by other users, you cannot dismiss something that has made a large change here along with responsive administration staff. I guess we could say that you are recognizing a culture shift.

cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-06 13:36 In the ideal world, perhaps users would not respond to threads unless they had something positive to say. The reality is that people are people and that this site is obviously not a paid technical support help desk. People often will respond regardless, and a "negative" comment can result in something positive.
This thread for example.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-06 13:36 Equally positive intent can result in wholesale destruction - i.e a very "helpful" but inexperienced user could guide someone into wrecking their system and losing data, whereas a more negative and plain speaking user may prevent that. You can neither predict nor prevent the outcome - you have to let things proceed.
Here is where we diverge on the path, the negative plain speaker should keep those comments to themselves. We are trying to keep it friendly and helpful, not condescending and not placing the onus of ignorance on the party attempting to lift the veil of their own ignorance.

Have something to contribute to the thread? Do it. Nothing positive even by way of correction? Don't do it.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-06 13:36 What you have to be wary of here is a repeat of 2011, where that previous administration threw the baby out with the bath water.
donald wrote: 2022-10-04 00:45It's also just as easy to pop into a thread and point a bad question to the How to ask your question thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=152765 than it is to not respond to the type of thread.
I don't see that as being very far removed from "google it" or "RTFM". I've seen users who are directed to such threads getting in a grump on other sites, many times.

Again this is all about perceptions - but from my point of view, being referred to a "how to ask a question" thread seems condescending.

Regarding homework questions specifically - I think that's more of a moral dilemma and should not be covered by any forum rules. It should be up to individual users. Personally, I don't help with those, nor some incompetent who clearly wants you to bail them out with some work related task so that they can go back to their boss and get a pat on the back. I for one appreciate other users flagging those up.
We are just going to go in circles here. Initially I agreed that telling someone to read the rules *could* be viewed akin to telling someone to RTFM but re-reading it the way you wrote it has me rescinding that point of view.

If you ask for help with a particular software issue on a particular forum/system they will ask you to:
  • Post your O/S
  • Post configuration file 1
  • Post configuration file 2
  • Post a log of the events
  • Tell them how to duplicate the issue that the user is asking about.
In essence the general ask for help worldview is to re-focus the user on how to ask the question properly so that they can get the guidance they seek.
We do the same here with our how to ask a question thread. We didn't invent the wheel.
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cynwulf

Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#26 Post by cynwulf »

"Going in circles" seems to mean this should no longer be discussed? I don't at all agree with your take on this. I don't agree that the supposed offense warranted the action you have take - nor any action in fact.

I am not the only person questioning the warning/decision here, yet you seem "unmovable as a mountain".

Of the 4 or 5 users who responded, I can't see one who even remotely agreed with the decision in question.

Of those, 1 (an advanced user) had said he's effectively out for good. That's not counting the OP.

That doesn't seem like a good result. Just over ten years ago we had a patronising admin who disenfranchised most of the experienced users. His mission was to "clean up" the Debian forums - it didn't work - and only a few years from then until recently you had even more general nastiness than all the previous years of the forums existence put together.

I have acknowledged that there was some vile behaviour here some years ago - Segfault's post does not fit that category by anyone's standard. From my perspective, you've made an example of someone, for no good reason for something minor and trivial.

I am all for plain speech - whether negative or positive - to suit the situation at hand. What I am against is faux politeness and "sugar coating", to suit some kind of "customer services" agenda enforced by a "CoC" or whatever, where unpaid volunteers are expected to behave as if they are in the corporate employ. If you can clarify that the latter is part of the "big plan" here, I will also take my leave.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#27 Post by donald »

cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 "Going in circles" seems to mean this should no longer be discussed? I don't at all agree with your take on this. I don't agree that the supposed offense warranted the action you have take - nor any action in fact.
The thread is still open and as much discussion as you wish can still occur, but for the most part it seems that It is going in circles as in no new points are being made and it looks like everyone has moved on from the topic.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 I am not the only person questioning the warning/decision here, yet you seem "unmovable as a mountain".

You were not the only person. I am not unmovable by any means. I would suggest you re-read the thread for the discussion parts and you will clearly see that I ask for user support and feedback for my task in the future and ask the same of the users.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 Of the 4 or 5 users who responded, I can't see one who even remotely agreed with the decision in question.
Okay.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 Of those, 1 (an advanced user) had said he's effectively out for good. That's not counting the OP.
Okay.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 That doesn't seem like a good result. Just over ten years ago we had a patronising admin who disenfranchised most of the experienced users. His mission was to "clean up" the Debian forums - it didn't work - and only a few years from then until recently you had even more general nastiness than all the previous years of the forums existence put together.
I'm unsure where you are going with this. Several users in this very thread have complained about the past behaviours, and the administration staff is working to address that past behaviour with a different interface between administration and users into the future. I cannot give reparations or speak for past administration, I can speak for myself and the future here.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 I have acknowledged that there was some vile behaviour here some years ago - Segfault's post does not fit that category by anyone's standard. From my perspective, you've made an example of someone, for no good reason for something minor and trivial.
Sometimes trivial things provoke large changes. Since the 'minor infraction', in your, opinion, we've seen no repeated behaviour along those veins so the example as unfortunate as it was for Seg, certainly made the point that needed to be made.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-13 15:42 I am all for plain speech - whether negative or positive - to suit the situation at hand. What I am against is faux politeness and "sugar coating", to suit some kind of "customer services" agenda enforced by a "CoC" or whatever, where unpaid volunteers are expected to behave as if they are in the corporate employ. If you can clarify that the latter is part of the "big plan" here, I will also take my leave.
You've been nitpicking for the past few replies and threads and that is your perogative, you are not unwelcome here, and you have been able and will always be able to share your opinion on something that affects you, though within the rules and guidelines that we all have to respect. What you do with that ability is up to you. It would be great if you stayed here and contributed positively, but if you cannot then you do not need to force your own hand.
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cynwulf

Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#28 Post by cynwulf »

Well thank you for confirming, at least, that you used Segfault simply to make an example.

It's all very plain and clear to me now.

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