Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

unwanted WEB services

Code of conduct, suggestions, and information on forums.debian.net.
Post Reply
Message
Author
LE_746F6D617A7A69
Posts: 932
Joined: 2020-05-03 14:16
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 65 times

unwanted WEB services

#1 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

Simple question:
After recent updates of this forums webpage, I get (customized) www warnings about *unexpected* web access, the problem boils down to the simple fact that the *new* Debian Forums are now depending on external services, namely:
- ajax.googleapis.com
- maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn (cdn usually stands for "content delivery network" - i.e. spam/unwanted advertisements)

My question is: why Debian forums have been "switched" to use such spamming/spying/advertising services - if You need some money to pay for hosting, just let the users know - I'm sure that we can handle this without relying on external companies.
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

User avatar
donald
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Posts: 1041
Joined: 2021-03-30 20:08
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 240 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#2 Post by donald »

@LE_746F6D617A7A69

Those things are not 'new' as new from from the results of the forums being updated. The outside calls to external services are only for the fonts that the different style developers use, there is not much that we can really do about it as even the default forum style uses outside delivery for fonts.

We did attempt to push off all outside services but found it broke a few things and I personally broke a few things attempting to self host fonts here. In the end we left them in place and employed a new cookie system that warns users about the outside media.

The cookie system warns about most of the external services that a user may come across and gives the user the option to allow or deny them:

On the 1st entry to the forums:
cookie_main.png
The options if you open it:
cookie_open.png
- ajax.googleapis.com - Likely from fonts or could be from something called in the forum style you are using.
- maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn - This is a Content Delivery Network for style and web designers which is an alternative to google fonts.

I believe if you use the No-Script extension in firefox you can disallow the google/cdn stuff and it will force your browser to use your computer fonts.

I think we are good on the hosting right now, though if you wish to Donate to Debian: How to donate to the Debian Project
Typo perfectionish.


"The advice given above is all good, and just because a new message has appeared it does not mean that a problem has arisen, just that a new gremlin hiding in the hardware has been exposed." - FreewheelinFrank

LE_746F6D617A7A69
Posts: 932
Joined: 2020-05-03 14:16
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#3 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

donald wrote: 2022-12-03 01:06 - ajax.googleapis.com - Likely from fonts or could be from something called in the forum style you are using.
- maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn - This is a Content Delivery Network for style and web designers which is an alternative to google fonts.
Well, if You say that few tens of icons, few fonts and few styles are taking so much resources, that they can't be kept locally on the forum server - I don't buy it - especially that previous forum version worked perfectly well without using external resources.

Besides, previous version was loading with zero delay, and now I have to wait for maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn which is sometimes very slow to respond.

Anyway, thank You for response and explanation.

Regards.
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#4 Post by sunrat »

What theme are you using @LE_746F6D617A7A69 ? I'm not seeing maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn with prosilver, only the google one.
Edited - i am seeing that.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

LE_746F6D617A7A69
Posts: 932
Joined: 2020-05-03 14:16
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#5 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

Hi,

I've never changed the theme - I'm using the default "prosilver" - and it sometimes "hungs" waiting for maxcdn :(
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

User avatar
donald
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Posts: 1041
Joined: 2021-03-30 20:08
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 240 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#6 Post by donald »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 20:14
donald wrote: 2022-12-03 01:06 - ajax.googleapis.com - Likely from fonts or could be from something called in the forum style you are using.
- maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn - This is a Content Delivery Network for style and web designers which is an alternative to google fonts.
Well, if You say that few tens of icons, few fonts and few styles are taking so much resources, that they can't be kept locally on the forum server - I don't buy it - especially that previous forum version worked perfectly well without using external resources.
To clarify we never said it was a resource issue, nor that we are unable to keep fonts, styles, or anything on the server.

What we did say was that we attempted to move away from outside content and it broke a few things as the outside CDN requests are used by the majority of style developers. We have a few other things going on right now with slowness, and will eventually figure out how to self host fonts, right now it is a back of the stove burner issue and we used the new cookie system to, in the least, highlight that users may have outside content introduced to them by other users or by the system itself.

If you are on the default style then you are pulling fonts from font.awesome, ironically if you go to phpbb they are using the same fonts. If you have access to a style editor you can see which website that you are on is pulling data from whom.

Web design and its use of CDNs for use of fonts and APIs have gotten so prevalent that it is like fighting water coming into the basement.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 20:14 Besides, previous version was loading with zero delay, and now I have to wait for maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn which is sometimes very slow to respond.
Thank you for this! We've been trying to figure out and address what seems to be intermitent slowness on the forums and have been focusing on the server end, it could be delays from the CDNs used for fonts that is the issue? Maybe? I would imagine the users system would default to native fonts if the suggested fonts were not available ...
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 20:14 Anyway, thank You for response and explanation.
Anytime. We are all tinkerers to some regard, sharing some knowledge goes a long way.
Typo perfectionish.


"The advice given above is all good, and just because a new message has appeared it does not mean that a problem has arisen, just that a new gremlin hiding in the hardware has been exposed." - FreewheelinFrank

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#7 Post by sunrat »

I just tried blocking all external fonts in uBlock Origin (maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn, fonts.gstatic.com, ajax.googleapis.com) and the fonts themselves were OK but icon fonts were all missing ie. Quick Links, FAQ, Board Index icons etc.. fonts.gstatic.com loads OpenSans in a woff2 container.
I also checked Firefox Network Monitor which says maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn is taking 240ms for initial load and is cached after that so 0ms subsequently. That is insignificant compared to the ~1700ms it takes forums.debian.net to load.

Using prosilver style btw.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
donald
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Posts: 1041
Joined: 2021-03-30 20:08
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 240 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#8 Post by donald »

@sunrat I've been using the native style editor to find the outside links but the monitor is perfect for it. It is all fonts and styles. Going to try this with a youtube video that is embedded here.
Typo perfectionish.


"The advice given above is all good, and just because a new message has appeared it does not mean that a problem has arisen, just that a new gremlin hiding in the hardware has been exposed." - FreewheelinFrank

LE_746F6D617A7A69
Posts: 932
Joined: 2020-05-03 14:16
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#9 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

Here's what I get (highest delays, result obtained after clearing the cache):
Delays.png
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#10 Post by sunrat »

Which page is that you are loading @LE_746F6D617A7A69 ? I just reloaded this one and the woff2 font from maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn took 126ms this time. Yours takes ~60 times as long!
The blue section of the bar is waiting time. Green is data download.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

LE_746F6D617A7A69
Posts: 932
Joined: 2020-05-03 14:16
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#11 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

sunrat wrote: 2022-12-05 21:37 Which page is that you are loading @LE_746F6D617A7A69 ? I just reloaded this one and the woff2 font from maxcdn.bootstrap.cdn took 126ms this time. Yours takes ~60 times as long!
The blue section of the bar is waiting time. Green is data download.
Obviously, the page I'm loading is forums.debian.net

You should take into account 2 things:
1. I've presented a situation when the caches are empty
2. We're connecting from completely different locations

Anyway my point is, that previous forum version didn't relied on any external resources - and it was working just perfectly ;)
Bill Gates: "(...) In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system."
The_full_story and Nothing_have_changed

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#12 Post by sunrat »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-05 22:45 Obviously, the page I'm loading is forums.debian.net
Home page and topic pages are slightly different which is why I asked.
You should take into account 2 things:
1. I've presented a situation when the caches are empty
2. We're connecting from completely different locations
Of course I emptied cache, stats are meaningless without emptying cache. I get 0ms for all assets without doing that.
I suspect your location is the main reason for slowness.
Anyway my point is, that previous forum version didn't relied on any external resources - and it was working just perfectly ;)
I don't think @donald changed the prosilver style and that seems to be where the font requests originate. Need his comment on that.
phpBB has been upgraded to latest version several times (and is currently behind one version from upstream). As mentioned earlier, phpBB's own forums make external font requests.

I'm sure we are all interested in finding a way to avoid external asset requests, but as donald said earlier, he tried, it's hard to avoid, and he broke things trying already.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
donald
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Debian Developer, Site Admin
Posts: 1041
Joined: 2021-03-30 20:08
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 240 times

Re: unwanted WEB services

#13 Post by donald »

sunrat wrote: 2022-12-05 23:25
I don't think @donald changed the prosilver style and that seems to be where the font requests originate. Need his comment on that.
phpBB has been upgraded to latest version several times (and is currently behind one version from upstream). As mentioned earlier, phpBB's own forums make external font requests.

I'm sure we are all interested in finding a way to avoid external asset requests, but as donald said earlier, he tried, it's hard to avoid, and he broke things trying already.
I have nothing to add here @sunrat covered everything.
Typo perfectionish.


"The advice given above is all good, and just because a new message has appeared it does not mean that a problem has arisen, just that a new gremlin hiding in the hardware has been exposed." - FreewheelinFrank

Post Reply