[Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

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NFT5
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[Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#1 Post by NFT5 »

Original thread: viewtopic.php?t=153829

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the concept of the donor having to wear the transportation costs. I have heaps of hardware, ranging from complete desktops to various cables/connectors/dongles etc. and I'd be happy to give those items to someone who could make use of them but maybe can't afford to buy. But the receiver is the one who's getting the benefit and I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect them to pick up the postage given that I would wear the cost of packing suitable for the item and the journey.

A few, basic rules might also be in order. Items checked working ok and video of same if required but no warranty. If the transport company ran over it with a forklift and it's DOA then it's DOA.

Bear in mind, too, that those of us who are fortunate to be living in "developed" nations have a much higher postage cost than those in "developing" nations. Australia Post don't give a rodent's backside who I'm sending stuff to or for what purpose. No discounts for donations. That said, many diasporas here have set up their own transportation networks, usually at much lower costs than the mainstream channels. For example, I know that I can send stuff to China for a fraction of the standard postage but wouldn't have the faintest idea how to send things to countries in (for example) Africa or the Middle East.
Last edited by donald on 2023-01-24 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split topic between this discussion and donors. Link to original thread added to the OP.

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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#2 Post by donald »

If there are costs associated with the item on the receivers end then the item is not free at all.

Edit: I added your video suggestion to the main post.
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Re: [Hardware] "Free as in Free Beer" hardware donations, part II.

#3 Post by Hallvor »

I think more people would donate hardware depending on how costs for shipping is handled. The donor is already giving away hardware for nothing. Some may be fine with paying for shipping, others would rather hand it over to the recycling station or try to sell the hardware.

If the donor always has to cover all the costs, it is a very bad deal (especially for international shipping).

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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#4 Post by NFT5 »

donald wrote: 2023-01-24 20:00 If there are costs associated with the item on the receivers end then the item is not free at all.

Edit: I added your video suggestion to the main post.
Thanks.

Don 't get me wrong, I support the idea of helping others but what about things like GST, import duties and other charges that can be levied at the receiver's end?

In my business I import stuff fairly regularly. Those extra costs can add 30% to the cost. Here, at least, they used to not charge where the value was under $1000AUD but the Government must be a bit strapped for cash because they're now applying it on ALL items.

For a receiver in a developing country the prospect of getting an item, considered too expensive normally, for maybe 10% to even 30% of its usual cost is possibly something they could afford.

I think that the decision should be left to the receiver. If they can afford the shipping and other costs then, sure, go ahead. But if they're guaranteed that it will be 100% free then I see that there will be instances of the programme being taken advantage of.

For example. the HDMI leads you have offered in the other thread. How would you feel if I accepted and you were slugged with $30 in costs?


donald wrote: 2023-01-24 21:23
U.S. Shipping preferred, I can do International if the shipping costs are not too prohibitive.
Oh. I rest my case.

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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#5 Post by donald »

NFT5 wrote: 2023-01-25 20:35
Don 't get me wrong, I support the idea of helping others but what about things like GST, import duties and other charges that can be levied at the receiver's end?
Hence this thread to figure a process out. As we just did with your added suggestion we all can continue to contribute to update the guidelines for the programme.
NFT5 wrote: 2023-01-25 20:35 In my business I import stuff fairly regularly. Those extra costs can add 30% to the cost. Here, at least, they used to not charge where the value was under $1000AUD but the Government must be a bit strapped for cash because they're now applying it on ALL items.
In the rule of universal irony, the passage about shipping was added at the last minute because of outrageous customs fees.
NFT5 wrote: 2023-01-25 20:35 For example. the HDMI leads you have offered in the other thread. How would you feel if I accepted and you were slugged with $30 in costs?
I would not be slugged with outrageous fees as you show in my quote below:
donald wrote: 2023-01-24 21:23 U.S. Shipping preferred, I can do International if the shipping costs are not too prohibitive.

Looking at the post about the cables we could add that the receiver be an active member here for at least $FOO period of time and have $FOO number of posts? This way we are not just parting away items that people are reselling for profit. Toward your point if someone has to pay out of pocket to get the item it does thwart that predatory behaviour.

The point of contention here seems to be:
There should be no ask for ANY cash, favor, exchange of services, or digital currency for the donation from either party. The donor should cover shipping and any associated costs. While this idea is to help everyone, sometimes shipping Internationally or even regionally can incur large transaction fees such as transport, taxation, fuel, port, or other miscellaneous fees, if you wish to donate/send locally within your region that is fair, we only ask that you please state so in your offering.
ASK in that sentence was meant to avoid members selling items.

The donor sentence could be modified to should cover 'reasonable fees' at which point the receiver is responsible. That wording was omitted earlier to avoid confusion but seems to have done the opposite.

There should be a middle ground somewhere to protect all of the parties. Perhaps for international shipping it could be asked that the receiver pay a part of the cost, though I think that removes the spirit of the original thread and can cause issues, specifically with untested items.

Thoughts?
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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#6 Post by wizard10000 »

donald wrote: 2023-01-25 22:38Thoughts?
I think my thoughts kinda line up with one or two others' - I'm happy to box up some of the toys I'm not using and drop them off at the post office but I don't plan to pay to ship them.
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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#7 Post by steve_v »

donald wrote: 2023-01-24 20:00If there are costs associated with the item on the receivers end then the item is not free at all.
If shipping is on me then the stuff I have can remain "if you want it, come get it". Perks of living in the arse-end-of-nowhere and all that.

Giving stuff away is one thing. Spending hours testing, photographing, videoing (LOL, no) and packaging, then paying shipping fees on top, that right there is something else altogether. I don't run a charity shop, and I don't intend to start.
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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#8 Post by NFT5 »

donald wrote: 2023-01-25 22:38 The donor sentence could be modified to should cover 'reasonable fees' at which point the receiver is responsible.
I think that something like that would be much more reasonable.

For myself, I'd be happy to test and pack the item, then deliver to my local Post Office. Postage costs can be calculated and verified by the receiver at https://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/cal ... y-times/#/. Despatch within 48 hours of receiving payment by Paypal and a copy of the Tax Invoice issued by Australia Post, which may or may not include tracking information, emailed to the recipient. Or delivery, free, to any other location in Canberra, within, say, 2 weeks (i.e. I'll try to fit in in with something else that I'm doing and not have to make a special trip, which could be 60-100km there and back).

I'd expect that similar could be offered in other countries.

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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#9 Post by donald »

NFT5 wrote: 2023-01-26 06:35
donald wrote: 2023-01-25 22:38 The donor sentence could be modified to should cover 'reasonable fees' at which point the receiver is responsible.
I think that something like that would be much more reasonable.
To be honest, I am not a fan of having to involve payment platforms for this, however there are no other habiliments that come to mind to address that at this moment and I do not see any other option available to move this forward, so in that vein I am okay with this.

We can change the wording FROM:
donald wrote: 2023-01-23 23:39 There should be no ask for ANY cash, favor, exchange of services, or digital currency for the donation from either party. The donor should cover shipping and any associated costs. While this idea is to help everyone, sometimes shipping Internationally or even regionally can incur large transaction fees such as transport, taxation, fuel, port, or other miscellaneous fees, if you wish to donate/send locally within your region that is fair, we only ask that you please state so in your offering.
TO:
donald wrote: The donor should make the effort to cover reasonable shipping and any associated costs for shipping as the item is being sent is a donation.

While the programme idea is to equip others, sometimes shipping Internationally, or even regionally, can incur large transaction fees such as: Transport, tax, fuel, port, or other miscellaneous fees. For some donations the receiver may need to contribute in part toward the shipping.

To avoid this one can donate/send/pick up locally or within your region only. We do ask that you please state so in your offering.
We will need to modify the parts about *testing* and *untested* to ensure both parties have some protection.

I think we can address this changing the wording FROM:
donald wrote: 2023-01-23 23:39 Obviously some items may be far outside your ability to still test them for example old RAM sticks, tape or IDE drives tossed into a bin years ago, please be clear if you choose to donate that item to someone that the item is stated clearly as *untested*.
TO:
donald wrote: Any item listed for donation should be tested by the donor if the donor has the means to test the item, if done the item *must* be listed as "tested". If the item is older and the donor is unable to test older technologies such as old RAM sticks, tape or IDE drives the item *must* be listed as "untested".
--

I think I will add something to the effect of: Receiver should have an account in good standing, with at least 10 posts over the period of 3 months.

That should, at least in theory, deter new members from signing up for solely for donations that could go to better homes for a purpose or items taken only to be sold for profit elsewhere. If we go with this I'd be happier with a 15 post count and 6 months to ensure the recipient is a member of the actual community.
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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#10 Post by Fossy »

Hardware that I no longer have any use for … of any value or old junk and want to get rid of, I usually offer on specialized sales sites such as 2dehands.be / marktplaats.be .
It's my responsibility in order to determine under what conditions these deals can proceed … whatever , demand price or for free .
Expedition , never , only pickup at my place , if applicable payment in cash .
Those seller- accounts are linked to a fairly reliable valuation follow-up on which buyers can objectively evaluate the seller concerned .

Does such a section belong on a Debian User Forum ?
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Re: [Discussion] Free Hardware Discussion Thread

#11 Post by donald »

Fossy wrote: 2023-01-26 18:25 Hardware that I no longer have any use for … of any value or old junk and want to get rid of, I usually offer on specialized sales sites such as 2dehands.be / marktplaats.be .
It's my responsibility in order to determine under what conditions these deals can proceed … whatever , demand price or for free .
Expedition , never , only pickup at my place , if applicable payment in cash .
Those seller- accounts are linked to a fairly reliable valuation follow-up on which buyers can objectively evaluate the seller concerned .

Does such a section belong on a Debian User Forum ?
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I thought about it and do not feel that DUF is set up in any fashion for a buy/sell/trade section at this time. Mainly out of concern for how or what responsibility we would have as a broker/host for transactions.

We could observe how the Donation thread proceeds and if there is enough traction in that thread use it as a guideline for such a section in the future.
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