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[SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

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epp
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[SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#1 Post by epp »

In an earlier thread, I inquired about numerous Qt-related packages being held back via apt. I learned that apt will not break the system, but aptitude will. viewtopic.php?t=153561

Currently, this is what apt is showing for held back packages:

Code: Select all

The following packages have been kept back:
  kde-cli-tools kde-cli-tools-data kde-config-screenlocker khotkeys khotkeys-data kscreen kwin-common
  kwin-data kwin-x11 libcolorcorrect5 libkf5screen-bin libkf5screen-data libkfontinst5 libkfontinstui5
  libkscreenlocker5 libkwineffects14 libkwinglutils14 libkworkspace5-5 libnotificationmanager1
  libplasma-geolocation-interface5 libpowerdevilcore2 libpowerdevilui5 libtaskmanager6abi1 libweather-ion7
  plasma-browser-integration plasma-desktop plasma-desktop-data plasma-discover
  plasma-discover-backend-fwupd plasma-discover-common plasma-workspace powerdevil powerdevil-data
  python3-software-properties software-properties-common systemsettings
When I launched Synaptic, that wants to remove:

Code: Select all

kde-config-screenlocker kinfocenter kwin-common kwin-x11 libkscreenlocker5 plasma-desktop plasma-workspace powerdevil sddm-theme-breeze sddm-theme-debian-breeze and software-properties-kde
install:

Code: Select all

 python3-blinker python3-httplib2 python3-jwt python3-lazr.restfulclient python3-lazr.uri python3-oauthlib python3-pyparsing python3-wadllib software-properties-qt
then upgrade the rest.

Is this also related to the Qt transition? The task-lxqt-desktop meta package, unexpectedly also installed a minimal Plasma desktop (but X11-only), in addition to LXQt.

Thanks again.
Last edited by epp on 2023-01-27 12:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#2 Post by milomak »

i have moved to using apt a lot more. but on occasion will check what aptitude will do.

i always take direction from apt-listbugs.

and obviously a solution that doesn't require a whole host of packages being removed.
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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#3 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

have never used aptitude

I use synaptic when I need to track down all packages that might serve a specific function, apt-??? for intended purposes, and dpkg to inspect package or installed file content...and of course disabled automatic updates, as any sane SA should.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#4 Post by epp »

@milomak Thanks for the reply.

I do not have apt-listbugs installed, been using apt to update/upgrade, with occasional use of synaptic for single packages.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#5 Post by canci »

I've personally never seen a difference in apt vs. Synaptic, but I have to admit that I've been using apt only since ages.

It could be that apt isn't showing you the latest suggestions, since you haven't issues apt update, but Synaptic might be doing a repo state update automatically at launch. Being that Sid changes frequently, you might just have checked between updated package caches?
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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#6 Post by steve_v »

I'm pretty sure I've never used synaptic, or any other GUI package manager for that matter. None of them bring anything I want, and I most certainly won't rely on X staying up and some GUI app not making dumb decisions during a dist-upgrade. Also one cannot use script to record and replay actions for analysis, disaster-recovery, or replication on another machine, as you can with apt at the CLI.
If I want an alternative dependency solver or a package browser, aptitude has filled that role forever. So long as you _read and understand_ what aptitude proposes, "break your system" is simply FUD.
epp wrote: 2023-01-27 00:44I do not have apt-listbugs installed
You're running sid, and sid has bugs on a fairly regular basis. apt-listbugs is therefore an extremely useful thing to have installed.
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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#7 Post by epp »

canci wrote: 2023-01-27 06:20 It could be that apt isn't showing you the latest suggestions, since you haven't issues apt update, but Synaptic might be doing a repo state update automatically at launch. Being that Sid changes frequently, you might just have checked between updated package caches?
I run apt update and apt upgrade several times a day, because I read on one of the Debian web sites that the sid repositories are updated every six hours. The packages above with plasma in the name as well as software-properties-common and systemsettings, have been listed as held back for a good week and a half already.

systemsettings is a KDE package,

software-properties-common provides an abstraction of the used apt repositories, according to its description, so it would seem to be desktop-independent.

What I am seeing in Synaptic right now, is that if I (example) only upgrade software-properties-common, it wants to remove software-properties-kde and install or upgrade nine python3-* packages. The currently-installed s-p-common is version 0.96-20.2-1 (new version available is 0.99.30-4 and s-p-kde is (currently-installed and latest available) 0.96-20.2-1.

I have to go back to task-lxqt-desktop and question why it also installed a miminal Plasma (X11) desktop as well as other KDE packages? If there were a way to safely remove LXQt completely, or perhaps just the Plasma packages, as I don't want to break anything, while keeping LXDE installed, it could very well clear up these held back packages.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#8 Post by fabien »

epp wrote: 2023-01-27 10:15it wants to remove software-properties-kde
software-properties-kde does not belong to unstable or testing, there is a package software-properties-qt though.
software-properties-qt depends python3-software-properties (=0.99.30-4)

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#9 Post by epp »

fabien wrote: 2023-01-27 11:28
epp wrote: 2023-01-27 10:15it wants to remove software-properties-kde
software-properties-kde does not belong to unstable or testing, there is a package software-properties-qt though.
software-properties-qt depends python3-software-properties (=0.99.30-4)

Code: Select all

# apt install software-properties-kde
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
software-properties-kde is already the newest version (0.96.20.2-2.1).
software-properties-kde set to manually installed.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 36 not upgraded.
Then why was it installed via the LXQt meta-package?

software-properties-qt is not currently installed. If Synaptic installs this, it wants to remove software-properties-kde, install eight python3- packages, and upgrade both python3-software-properties and software-properties-common.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#10 Post by craigevil »

Synaptic works just like apt/apt-get.
apt-listbugs and apt-listchanges should be installed on Testing and Sid. Pay attention to the output, as well as when packages are being removed.

Code: Select all

sudo apt upgrade
should never remove packages,

Code: Select all

sudo apt full-upgrade
will remove packages.

Code: Select all

search software-properties
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
python3-software-properties/unstable,unstable,now 0.99.30-4 all [installed]
  manage the repositories that you install software from

software-properties-common/unstable,unstable 0.99.30-4 all
  manage the repositories that you install software from (common)

software-properties-gtk/unstable,unstable 0.99.30-4 all
  manage the repositories that you install software from (GTK)

software-properties-qt/unstable,unstable 0.99.30-4 all
  manage the repositories that you install software from (Qt)

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#11 Post by wizard10000 »

epp wrote: 2023-01-26 16:20I learned that apt will not break the system, but aptitude will.
Think you got that backwards but I get it :)
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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#12 Post by epp »

I just ran Synaptic and let it do its thing. I also took screenshots of what it was removing/installing/upgrading.

After this, I ran apt autoremove from a terminal and there were now numerous (KDE) package to remove as they were now no longer required. I let it autoremove all of the packages, then rebooted.

System came back up fine. Plasma was gone (no longer listed on desktop manager login screen), LXQt desktop came up fine and apt now only shows two packages that it cannot update: libkf5screen-bin and libkf5screen-data. Upon attempting to remove both, apt also wanted to remove one LXQt-related package, so I now know LXQt uses these two, so I left them installed. Synaptic now shows there's nothing to upgrade.

apt-listbugs and apt-listchanges have also been installed.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#13 Post by CwF »

Synaptic can do it all. No need for cli anything anymore. In past versions it did need a terminal to help jump release and repo status changes. They fixed that.

Synaptic displays the status and ramifications of any action on any package. Auto remove and orphaned, broken, pinned, local packages are figured out. The sources.list can be managed along with local repos. It also keeps a nice searchable history, the list tools, terminal actions, error messages, etc all all logged,

Synaptic isn't as strong as aptitude in it's problem solving skills. Also as a desktop gui it's slower than aptitude in a tty. In addition to the mentioned extra tools, deborohan.deb needs installed to create the filter for synaptic. I usually add localepurge. Synaptic can manage apt cache too.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#14 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

CwF wrote: 2023-01-27 20:19 Synaptic can do it all. No need for cli anything anymore.
[insert sigh here]

I will always argue that convincing computer users/administrators to favor GUIs dumbs down the herd.

This sums it up nicely.
https://9gag.com/gag/an4G4KE

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#15 Post by canci »

I prefer using apt to Synaptic, even though I did use it back in the day.
I usually open 2 terminal windows side by side. On the left one, I use apt search and usually pipe it through less if the output is too big.
Or I use apt show to see package descriptions. On the right one, I install the packages I need. This workflow made Synaptic obsolete for me.
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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#16 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

synaptic is nice because it easily allows me to search for related packages via name/description when I'm trying to install a "capability"

but I always want the "hit it with a hammer option" of a cli manager.

One of the things that scares the hell out of me about wayland is that I'm fairly certain it is going to break

sudo synaptic in a most haneous way.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#17 Post by steve_v »

CwF wrote: 2023-01-27 20:19No need for cli anything anymore.
:lol:
Now pull the other one, it's got bells on.
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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#18 Post by CwF »

CwF wrote: 2023-01-27 20:19 No need for cli anything anymore.
For those with low comprehension intercepted by personal issues the term 'need' is contextually synonymous with 'required'. In prior versions synaptic was not able to do it all and 'required' terminal action to reset the repositories. No longer the case and now synaptic can be the preferred tool for any who so desire.

Back when synaptic was removed from testing along with other factors, I was a little worried that my launch to 'vertical' was going to happen to early. Now that is firmly scheduled for Debian 13, or ~2027. By then my main complaint will be about CMatrix incorrect rendering when the terminal is 'hologramed'.

And note, a terminal emulator on the desktop is as 'GUI' as is synaptic.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#19 Post by Bulkley »

I haven't used Synaptic (or any of its clones) for years. It's simply not necessary.

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Re: [SID - Unstable] Apt vs Synaptic

#20 Post by cds60601 »

For me the use of synaptic is when I wish peruse the packages that are available. Not looking for anything in particular, just to see if something hits my fancy.
Other than that, apt (I often work with Arch systems and prefer a non GUI interface, pacman) except for the afore mentioned.
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