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[Software] extra software rant

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jcizzo
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[Software] extra software rant

#1 Post by jcizzo »

why is it that all the extra junk software (games, photo editing, office, etc...) software either must be installed at the time of the os installation, or the folks have gone out of their way to make it very difficult to not install said apps? i've scoured the web looking for ways to perform a basic, simple, os w/gui install and, while it seems possible and people give instructions, there's no clear cut documentation. a lot of the instructions are kind've hodge-podged together with bits and pieces missing, and others chiming in about how they forgot something, and blah blah blah... A) it doesn't help those of us who are novice, and B) it's ultimately just such a waste.. all that drive space and resources used by junk that has no business being where we don't want it.

why is it that during the os installation we're not presented with a clear cut menu that we can choose to have/not have software installed? especially for a server install?

yes, i'm whining, but it's warranted! a server installation shouldn't have libreoffice or games, or other junk.. and isn't this whole exercise about choice? so we can't choose to NOT install the junk we don't need, and therefore after all is done, we have to go in and manually uninstall it all?

i just don't understand the approach and who's pulling the strings to make this happen.. we should be able to choose what we want versus don't want to be installed during the installation.. I used libreoffice, it's great! i use firefox! for my media workstation, i don't need anything but firefox (probably don't even need that).

i know i'm gonna get beaten up for this but.. I think my rant kind've makes sense..

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#2 Post by 4D696B65 »

uncheck "desktop" in tasksel?

https://wiki.debian.org/tasksel

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#3 Post by BBQdave »

jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41why is it that during the os installation we're not presented with a clear cut menu that we can choose to have/not have software installed?
I agree :) My DE choice is Gnome, and it would be nice to only load Gnome and some applications to manage one's system and network. Other applications, such as Libre Office, could be added later by the user.

That said, the default Debian 11 (Gnome + applications) is fairly light by today's standards. I'm trying to recall, but I believe it was under 8GB. That's less than my phone's OS.

I have a 65GB SSD, small space for current hardware standards, and I don't even come close to using up the drive with OS and personal data.

And it's easy to grab my applications and load them on the dock tray. After first install and dock tray set up, I hardly ever go into the applications menu. Oh, there's a bunch of applications there I do not use, but it does not affect system function or my work flow :)
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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#4 Post by jcizzo »

yeah, i know it's lightweight.. but this is what microsoft and apple do to us.. Ubuntu is pretty much forcing people to use snaps.. it's not good.. completely flies in the face that OSS stands for. and debian as an OS is GREAT! but it all comes down to the principle. we should all have a choice as to what gets installed on our systems and it's really $hitty for folks to go outta their way to push something else on us that we don't want/need... not to mention the potential attack surface. just very VERY odd how debian would do this. for all they stand for.. i don't get it

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#5 Post by wizard10000 »

I do minimal installs all the time. What I do is deselect all desktop environments, select "ssh server", "print server" and "standard system utilities" and build from there. On first boot I'd install xorg, xinit and openbox plus my preferred applications.
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#6 Post by CHMOD777 »

jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 21:15 yeah, i know it's lightweight.. but this is what microsoft and apple do to us.. Ubuntu is pretty much forcing people to use snaps.. it's not good.. completely flies in the face that OSS stands for. and debian as an OS is GREAT! but it all comes down to the principle. we should all have a choice as to what gets installed on our systems and it's really $hitty for folks to go outta their way to push something else on us that we don't want/need... not to mention the potential attack surface. just very VERY odd how debian would do this. for all they stand for.. i don't get it
I don't think it's fair to say that it's what Apple and MS are doing. Apple and MS tend to force proprietary and commercial applications in their operating system desktop experience. In Debian, there is no such thing. There is no advertising, and all the "extras" in the form of games are free software.

When people install a "desktop" OS, they are used to having these things included. Finding these things when installing a new system can be a fun thing, and make a user more likely to poke around the OS and see what it has to offer. If you're a more experienced user looking for a more minimalist system, then you can use netinst or uncheck desktop in tasksel.

What "attack surface" are you referring to? You should configure the system such as that it works for your threat model. The default installation is meant to be reasonably secure for the every day user. A few harmless games and an office suite aren't much of an attack surface, especially when they are never running unless you choose to interact with them.

And remember, you have the choice in all of this. You can choose to not install these applications at system installation, or you can choose to NOT use Debian in the first place and use something more like QubesOS if you need a fully working super-secure system OOTB and don't want to configure one (https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/secu ... ex.en.html)

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#7 Post by steve_v »

jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41 why is it that all the extra junk software (games, photo editing, office, etc...) software either must be installed at the time of the os installation, or the folks have gone out of their way to make it very difficult to not install said apps?
They haven't, those things are included in the default desktop task and nothing is forcing you to install it. If unchecking an option in the installer is "very difficult", I'm not sure what else to say.
jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41why is it that during the os installation we're not presented with a clear cut menu that we can choose to have/not have software installed?
Because presenting a checkbox for every single application would make for a list nine miles long? You know how many applications are included in the upstream KDE or GNOME desktop "suites", right?
What you do get is a simple selection of common "tasks" in the installer, and if you don't want what they include you are free to simply deselect them and install the individual components you do want later. Even selecting no tasks at all will still get you a usable CLI system with apt to install whatever else you need.
jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41especially for a server install?
I honestly have no idea why anyone would install a GUI on a server, let alone select "desktop environment" in the installer if a server was the intent. There are server tasks for server installs, and none of them install any of the "junk" you are referring to, i.e.:
jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41a server installation shouldn't have libreoffice or games, or other junk.
The "web server" task has no games and no libreoffice... Nor do the print, dns, mail or file server options. The only way you get that stuff is if you leave "desktop" or "laptop" selected.
jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41I think my rant kind've makes sense.
If you just hit "next" a bunch of times without reading the installer prompts or use some kind of "easy mode" live image for a server, sure. I guess it does. :roll:
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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#8 Post by lindi »

BBQdave wrote: 2023-05-16 20:18 That said, the default Debian 11 (Gnome + applications) is fairly light by today's standards. I'm trying to recall, but I believe it was under 8GB. That's less than my phone's OS.
Less than 8 GB indeed. If I install Debian 11 to a virtual machine with default settings (gnome desktop) this only takes 1.5 GB. You can see a screencast of the installation as well as the resulting qcow2 image at https://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/debian11/des ... installer/

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#9 Post by BBQdave »

lindi wrote: 2023-05-17 06:12Less than 8 GB indeed.
I must be recalling after install and added applications and personal data restored :)

My experience is that my small drive is fine, with plenty of space to expand data. And my work flow and applications function smoothly, fast. The extra applications (default install) that I do not use have no effect on my system performance or my work flow function :)

My computer use is basic: word processing, spreadsheets, group organizing through calendars and email, research, reading, and amateur photography development.
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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#10 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

Yep. you can get a minimal installation down to about 1.3Gbyte, but I do share the dependency frustation of the OP.

It's been a long standing pet-peave of mine (one of many) that the applications dependencies in linux are a house of cards. Another related frustration is the lack of real support WRT bugs in library dependencies. I submit a bug report and instead of "interesting, we'll see what we can do" I get a long winded lesson in "it's not our fault. it's a bug in a support library that you should push upstream." to which my response is, "you chose to use that library. You push it upstream!"

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#11 Post by steve_v »

kent_dorfman766 wrote: 2023-05-17 15:49Yep. you can get a minimal installation down to about 1.3Gbyte

Code: Select all

$ du -shx --exclude /var --exclude /tmp --exclude /home /
874M   /
And I didn't even try that hard :P
kent_dorfman766 wrote: 2023-05-17 15:49I submit a bug report and instead of "interesting, we'll see what we can do" I get a long winded lesson in "it's not our fault. it's a bug in a support library that you should push upstream." to which my response is, "you chose to use that library. You push it upstream!"
This is not exclusive to GNU/Linux, or even FOSS in general. It's also an attitude that grinds my gears no end.
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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#12 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

And I didn't even try that hard
OK...I'll say minimal and "well endowed". Better?

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#13 Post by Hallvor »

jcizzo wrote: 2023-05-16 18:41 why is it that all the extra junk software (games, photo editing, office, etc...) software either must be installed at the time of the os installation, or the folks have gone out of their way to make it very difficult to not install said apps? i've scoured the web looking for ways to perform a basic, simple, os w/gui install and, while it seems possible and people give instructions, there's no clear cut documentation. a lot of the instructions are kind've hodge-podged together with bits and pieces missing, and others chiming in about how they forgot something, and blah blah blah... A) it doesn't help those of us who are novice, and B) it's ultimately just such a waste.. all that drive space and resources used by junk that has no business being where we don't want it.
I understand your point, and I do believe you have one. It should be possible to make the installer a bit more flexible to select or de-select broad categories (image editing, web browser, games, video player, etc). I don't know what desktop environment you use, but KDE has a minimal metapackage called kde-plasma-desktop with just the basic stuff. It would surprise me if Gnome doesn't have the same. Just install a minimal metapackage and build from there. It's really no big deal.

As for clear documentation, I also agree. Debian is used by many veteran users who know how to do whatever they want. We have work to do when it comes to sharing knowledge and build quality documentation.
why is it that during the os installation we're not presented with a clear cut menu that we can choose to have/not have software installed? especially for a server install?
That's what the checkboxes during install is for. If you want to set up a lean server, you just uncheck what you don't want. Don't use a GUI. Here is a guide to set up a server:
viewtopic.php?t=153625
yes, i'm whining, but it's warranted!
No, your claims about servers is just user error. This is one area that works very well the way it is.
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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#14 Post by Zoaky »

As per the original poster It would be great to be able to fine tune the software selection phase during the installation process. Having to manually remove the games and all the other stuff that is bundled in makes the OS feel 'scruffy'. In all the years I've used Debian I've never understood why this is so. I've often thought it might be nice to have a specific Debian release for let's say office use/small business use.
Last edited by Zoaky on 2023-05-27 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#15 Post by fabien »

Zoaky wrote: 2023-05-27 11:47In all the years I've used Debian I've never understood why this is so.
In all the years I've used Debian, I've always done minimal installs, then fine-tuned what I installed, which takes days and can't be done through the install process. The package preselections are there to allow those who are not yet familiar enough with the system to have a functional system.

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Re: [Software] extra software rant

#16 Post by Zoaky »

Hello Fabien, I've been down the minimal install road myself and it works until a business requirement changes or a software package doesn't work correctly due to missing dependency. It would seem that the current (and previous) installation process is a one fit, fits all approach. Does Debian attract many new to Linux users? It always struck me to have a more of an advanced/seasoned install base. Tasksel has been mentioned already but that does not allow for fine grain package selection.

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