[Discussion] So ... Debian 12 ... Nightmare or Glorious Bliss? (or you just wish to post ITT with ellipsis ...)

[Marie SWE]

I have been using Debian12 Xfce for a few months and i find missing logs.. i had to install something i have forgotten to get Kern.log back.. I miss message log.
It has a bug i cant find a workaround for and the logs dont give much to work on..

It is a bit heavier then Debian10 was on this old laptop. But i just love this laptop for its size and its feeling typing on, dual Sata slots and DVD, so i will use it as long as i can.. modern laptops just sucks.
I do consider going back to Debian 10 if future updates makes it even heavier.

[Bulkley]

I do consider going back to Debian 10 if future updates makes it even heavier.

I'm still using Debian 10. I'm old, my computer is old and I'm using old software. Newer versions of Debian aren't backward compatible with some of my treasured programs. I see no reason to upgrade.

[Marie SWE]

I do consider going back to Debian 10 if future updates makes it even heavier.

I'm still using Debian 10. I'm old, my computer is old and I'm using old software. Newer versions of Debian aren't backward compatible with some of my treasured programs. I see no reason to upgrade.

I hate installing computers, and i hate it with a passion.. So if i am forced to reinstall a system, i always take the latest OS to by me as long time as possible before EOL and i am forced to reinstall again.
So i did install debian12 out of laziness, so i know i probibly wont need to reinstall the computer again before it ends up on my retro self in my computer room. This hardware is old(Asus A73SD).. it is a i3 Gen2 cpu, so it is old.. but this is the best laptop i have had.. i just love the size 17.6" i have one SSD for the OS and a big HDD for data.. and i have a DVD, then i have multiple screen setup with both HDMI and VGA, and the keyboard feels like a keyboard and not some soft crap that bounce/give away as you type on it.. try get all that that on a modern laptop without spending a half fortune. *LOL*

[CwF]

The old method used was rsyslog and it can coexist with the jouranlctl of systemd. I don't know the current install status in bookworm but rsyslog is still available and not needed. If you fully access logging needs, rsyslog is finally outclassed by journalctl. It's much easier to build small focused tools for a regular user to access, grep, and monitor happenings.

Logging isn't the only category that has duplication obesity. GTK, QT, java and python and more migratory 'foundations' all can hold lots of obsolete fat when a user insist on carrying forward any and all history. Debian has done a great job with this accommodation. It's the user that really allows the bloat.

I've been working on my bookworm images for over a year and the current examples are not much fatter the prior versions. It took time to change former ways. Once the changes stuck, mostly in me, then the purges were huge. My current bookworms are better and tighter than anything previous.

Since I came to Debian for the purpose of preserving obsolescence I'm keen on generational differences and the universal solution are virtual machines. I'm a decade into refusing to pretend everything can be in one box, without vm's, and even then not quite.

When a package looses a maintainer, or upstream dries up, it's destined for a vm, or a new way entirely.

So, Bliss.

[Marie SWE]

The old method used was rsyslog and it can coexist with the jouranlctl of systemd. I don't know the current install status in bookworm but rsyslog is still available and not needed. If you fully access logging needs, rsyslog is finally outclassed by journalctl. It's much easier to build small focused tools for a regular user to access, grep, and monitor happenings.

Logging isn't the only category that has duplication obesity. GTK, QT, java and python and more migratory 'foundations' all can hold lots of obsolete fat when a user insist on carrying forward any and all history. Debian has done a great job with this accommodation. It's the user that really allows the bloat.

I've been working on my bookworm images for over a year and the current examples are not much fatter the prior versions. It took time to change former ways. Once the changes stuck, mostly in me, then the purges were huge. My current bookworms are better and tighter than anything previous.

Since I came to Debian for the purpose of preserving obsolescence I'm keen on generational differences and the universal solution are virtual machines. I'm a decade into refusing to pretend everything can be in one box, without vm's, and even then not quite.

When a package looses a maintainer, or upstream dries up, it's destined for a vm, or a new way entirely.

So, Bliss.

okay.. i looked in to the folder journalctl and its just a mess compared to separate text files as the old was/is.. Is there a GUI for journalctl to make it easy to read?
it would be a big progress if there was one GUI easy for all system logs with flags on the different inputs as information, warning and error.
i did a duckduckgo search for a GUI but it was only a git hub project, not a repo installer

[CwF]

@Marie SWE
Well my answer will disappoint. We'd never agree what shape that gui should be. Since journalctl has been around awhile with nothing yet as you reported, don't hold your breath. Check the man for journalctl, it's pretty simple. With Xfce you have to, or get to, add what you like, how you like. There are many choices on how to add some gui elements. You still need to know the cli component.
I do agree, good gui's make these things faster. I'm odd, so I use tickle, or tcl/tk. Good stuff. Go vertical!

[Marie SWE]

@Marie SWE
Well my answer will disappoint. We'd never agree what shape that gui should be. Since journalctl has been around awhile with nothing yet as you reported, don't hold your breath. Check the man for journalctl, it's pretty simple. With Xfce you have to, or get to, add what you like, how you like. There are many choices on how to add some gui elements. You still need to know the cli component.
I do agree, good gui's make these things faster. I'm odd, so I use tickle, or tcl/tk. Good stuff. Go vertical!

Thanks for the honest and sincere answer.
yeah GUI is better in several ways.. you dont need to remember the half arch-wiki in your head and you get a neat and easy overview without getting hypnotized by a wall of text.
as for Quote: (((We'd never agree what shape that gui should be.))) if that have been a "several year" discussion.. I say steal the look from win7 logbook as every former windows user will know out of the box how to use it.. Then you can continue on discussing the final shape for the next few years without feeling pressure.


okay, then i will stay with the older log-files, as they are easy to open in a text editor to change fonts spacing and color to make it easier to read.
I have had it with learning more about linux.. i gave it just over 5½ year and i did learn what makes it tics and how to reshape things and so on.. Thats why i went to Debian as i learned Mint, MX, Ubuntu or whatever doesn't matter as linux is linux and it is the installed packages that makes the distribution. So i went back to root(debian) as it runs lighter and is less bloated and so on.
But i do love the GUI's so even i do use Xfce as it is a light DE and not as bloated as gnome etc.. default Xfce do not have so much GUI's, but as it is linux.. you just have to install them if you know the name on them.

So the terminal for me is only an evil necessary when the situation demands it .. that goes for both Linux and windows.. a nice GUI is king in my world.
The only bad GUI or UI i still accept is Clonezilla.. it looks like something the cat dragged in from the 80's, but darn, it is the best cloning software since Norton Ghost.
I hope and wish the Clonezilla developers want to step over to this side of the millennium and make a better more modern designed GUI.

[donald]

@Marie SWE Welcome back!

[Marie SWE]

@Marie SWE Welcome back!

Thanks
I dont spend much time on any forums after my health took a turn to the worse..
So i have to give up a lot of things and prioritize important things.. one thing is Linux, so i will not try learn more as i dont have time to "play around" any longer.
Sadly all my more modern systems will get windows server2022 modified for desktop usage, to be able to get a stable and reliable OS i know will work24/7 and 365days from now, without the need for fixing/tweaking it to keep it up and running.. my older hardware that cant run server2022 will stay on Debian12 as it dont matter if those computers stop working in a middle of a sentence or after a resume from hibernation.

Linux as Desktop usage do have potential to become something good. but it sadly has to many issues for me, as i dont have an hour to spend when it start acting up.. i just can't get my desktops and laptops to become stable and reliable.. I can get a Linux server to be stable 24/7 365days.. but not my desktops..

so i will see if i can solve my polkit zombie problem to keep Debian12 viewtopic.php?t=157964 on my older hardware.. otherwise i will have to go back to windows7 on them.

[CwF]

Things change. What we knew doesn't always help. I'm happy that Debian helped me return to how it knew it worked 40 years ago.
I once ask 'how do you use it'
I answered 'however you program it.'
That's what I mean by going vertical. Learn a tool set, and make it happen.

Many, if not most, view it all as a consumer commodity which includes demands and expectations. I view Debian as the Lego super set it is. It used to be a 1000pc set with imagination required, now it's a specific thing, one thing, with instructions.

I hope Debian continues for a long time, as a tool set holder. There may be a conflict in the fact I don't wish it ever to become a commodity. That's down the hall, in the derivative wing.

So the terminal for me is only an evil necessary when the situation demands it

I chose tickle as the toolkit to make my special purpose gui's. Nearly all my repetitive cli actions have a tab in my herder.tk program, reminiscent of an XP era tweaker tool. Instead of clonezilla, qemu-img has most things covered in a tab, full cow image management fills in between virt-manager and virsh, even works remotely with ssh -X to perform its magic on other computers. The journal tab is more recent, searchable, vacuums, etc. Too much to list, too dangerous to publish. The user of such a gui should be right there ready to modify the code. I do so weekly, almost daily sometimes as it expand with my singular vision. Tickle excels with it's non-compilation and lack of need to refactor every new wheel cycle from the Johnie come lately's.

[Marie SWE]

Things change. What we knew doesn't always help. I'm happy that Debian helped me return to how it knew it worked 40 years ago.
I once ask 'how do you use it'
I answered 'however you program it.'
That's what I mean by going vertical. Learn a tool set, and make it happen.

Many, if not most, view it all as a consumer commodity which includes demands and expectations. I view Debian as the Lego super set it is. It used to be a 1000pc set with imagination required, now it's a specific thing, one thing, with instructions.

I hope Debian continues for a long time, as a tool set holder. There may be a conflict in the fact I don't wish it ever to become a commodity. That's down the hall, in the derivative wing.

So the terminal for me is only an evil necessary when the situation demands it

I chose tickle as the toolkit to make my special purpose gui's. Nearly all my repetitive cli actions have a tab in my herder.tk program, reminiscent of an XP era tweaker tool. Instead of clonezilla, qemu-img has most things covered in a tab, full cow image management fills in between virt-manager and virsh, even works remotely with ssh -X to perform its magic on other computers. The journal tab is more recent, searchable, vacuums, etc. Too much to list, too dangerous to publish. The user of such a gui should be right there ready to modify the code. I do so weekly, almost daily sometimes as it expand with my singular vision. Tickle excels with it's non-compilation and lack of need to refactor every new wheel cycle from the Johnie come lately's.

okay.. 40years ago i didn't even have my first PC until 1987 and that was MS-Dos
my first contact with Linux was 2018 and by then i was windows GUI addicted since win95.. or you might even say from win3.1 as it started with gui software then. and i never looked back at MS-Dos environment after the GUI world appeared in front of me.

i can not coding/programming and i have no time or patience to learn or interest to learn... so making my own gui tools is pure science fiction.

i dont think qemu can clone raw encrypted drives or as many filesystems as clonezilla can. I use qemu for VM's and it seems really limited in the image capability.. or have i missed something?

II dont know about modifying code in a gui.. i just meant the jouranlctl logs need a gui to be easy read. as logs should be easy to read in a desktop environment.. even in servers, routers and switches should a log be easy to read. and those is read only not for modifying.

as for me what way/path Debian should take.. i say they should take the user friendly GUI road, but keep the Terminal for power users, nerds and the deep linux. a bit like windows and powershell.

They need a GUI to edit and add policy's, as not everyone understand code in that manner to code a policy rule in a empty document.. or to rewrite an existing policy.
i had to copy pxes policy rules or what a heck its spelling from a kali linux computer to my debian computer to be able to run some GUIs as root from the program menu without the need for starting gui programs from the terminal.
then i started to edit around in the policy files in the code even i didn't know 100% what i did to make things work as i want from gui environment as Terminal in 2024 is just wrong on a desktop system.. so that hacking around is a security risk.
But i needed to set some policy's and without an editor or having arch wiki in my head, i had to take a chance.. It works.. but if it become a security hole.. i dont know..

[CwF]

i dont think qemu can clone raw encrypted drives or as many filesystems as clonezilla can. I use qemu for VM's and it seems really limited in the image capability.. or have i missed something?

You have, qemu-img most certainly can image nearly anything. I've imaged a few encrypted disk to qcow2, ran them, and returned them to bare metal without issue. They don't compress btw!

[Marie SWE]

i dont think qemu can clone raw encrypted drives or as many filesystems as clonezilla can. I use qemu for VM's and it seems really limited in the image capability.. or have i missed something?

You have, qemu-img most certainly can image nearly anything. I've imaged a few encrypted disk to qcow2, ran them, and returned them to bare metal without issue. They don't compress btw!

in raw and encrypted filesystems do not compress in clonzilla either.. But normal fat/ntfs/ext/btrfs it compress and that is a good thing as it is stupid to get an image file on 4TB if only 900GB is used.

I will keep to what i know, i dont have time to learn new things.. i have also ditched my Udemy courses as i dont have time for non important things at the moment.

Time to shut down the computer.. i should have don that 1hour 23minutes ago..
I will look in tomorrow..
Have a nice evening.