Setting firmware=never allows non-free firmware installation on Debian 12

[Lux8]

I've been a Debian user for 10+ years because I'm a Free Software supporter. I wasn't aware of the "vote" last year to change Debian's policy on non-free, and was shocked to discover I've been running a bunch of non-free drivers on my system for months. There was no warning of this major change on the download page, nor during the installation! And the "Why Debian" page on debian.org is now extremely misleading IMO. How is this change to Debian OS not being announced as big red alerts in all those places?? How aptly named BookWORM is.

My system runs great without non-free drivers, and I only want to support hardware manufacturers that use/provide free drivers. Therefore, I've been trying to re-install Debian 12 without all that non-free stuff.

But sadly, installing Debian 12 without the non-free stuff is proving extremely difficult. I'm installing Debian from CD/DVD (as I always have) and it isn't even allowing me to MANUALLY block non-free drivers. I've tried installing 3 times with "firmware=never", and every time I end up with approximately 30 non-free components installed. The installer is ignoring that entry. So is installing a Free Software version of Debian from CD/DVD impossible now?

I do understand the motivation to make Debian easier for more people to use, but doing that by taking away what made Debian special for many existing users doesn't make sense. Debian has now become difficult for me to install -- I've spent days trying to figure this out. Clearly, those in charge of Debian no longer value the values on which Debian was grown. I really hope someone will fork Debian and create a version that's Free Software friendly during the installation. I know about PureOS, but would prefer something that's simply Debian, but Free-Software-Friendly.

In the meantime, with the "firmware=never" option not working, does anyone know of any other way to block non-free drivers when installing Debian 12 from CD/DVD?

FYI, the images I'm using: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/cu ... so-hybrid/

~THANK YOU in advance to anyone who can help~

Not working:

[CwF]

What package have you identified as being unwanted and not needed, that you are unable to remove?

[Lux8]

I don't need instructions for removing non-free packages. Rather, I'd like to know how to configure Debian's CD/DVD installations to not install non-free-firmware on my system in the first place. I can't seem to find any instructions for doing so that work, so at this point Debian seems to be forcing non-free during installation.

[wizard10000]

Bookworm's install guide describes the change to non-free firmware in Debian installers in section 2.2 - https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/

If "firmware=never" was executed correctly and it didn't work maybe it'd be helpful to file a bug report against Debian's installer instead of accusing Debian of "forcing non-free".

[Lux8]

That link does mention the policy change for Debian Bookworm, but IMO that should really be a more prominent announcement on the Debian homepage (which is still giving people the impression of a free OS) and also an alert during the Debian installation. It's a huge change, and not everyone can be expected to read deep links before updating their OS.

Furthermore, the instructions on that link for adding "firmware=never" is what I already tried, which didn't work. I also just tried installing again using the longer form mentioned on that page: "hw-detect/firmware-lookup=never". However, after installation was complete, I once again found there were numerous non-free components installed.

As for being a bug, Debian Bookworm was released almost a year ago. Given that timeframe, plus the non-prominent announcements, plus instructions that don't work in those announcements, I can't imagine how many people now have installations that have non-free components they didn't expect or want, and are still not aware of being on their system.

Anyway, until this issue gets fixed, or in case it doesn't, does anyone know of any other way to install Debian from a CD or DVD (or any other medium that doesn't require Internet during the installation) without including non-free-firmware?

[lindi]

I've been a Debian user for 10+ years because I'm a Free Software supporter. I wasn't aware of the "vote" last year to change Debian's policy on non-free, and was shocked to discover I've been running a bunch of non-free drivers on my]

Good to hear from a long-time free software supporter. Small corrections though: vote was is 2022 and this is not about drivers but about firmware. It is unfortunate but at least intel-microcode is somewhat necessary if you have an Intel CPU and want to avoid some of the hardware security issues that it fixes.

[CwF]

I can't imagine how many people now have installations that have non-free components they didn't expect or want, and are still not aware of being on their system.

Exactly my point, likely none. However, there may be many people who use hardware that they didn't realize need the non-free firmware and without much consideration are pleased that it works.

Enabling the repository does not violate anything if there is no need for the repository.

However, after installation was complete, I once again found there were numerous non-free components installed.

Identify those packages?

does anyone know of any other way to install Debian

You could just disable the repo post install and move on.

[sunrat]

@Lux8 please list the "approximately 30 non-free components installed" that you have on your system.
Here I have exactly 6 non-free firmware packages installed, all of which are required for my hardware.
Non-free drivers are not what this issue should be about, they generally have to be installed manually. Non-free firmware is what should be considered here, not drivers.

If you search this forum you will find a plethora of cases where problems have been solved by installing appropriate non-free firmware. The decision to include the option to include non-free firmware is pragmatic and essential IMO, but I agree the option to forego this should be functional.
Maybe the issue is that you used the live image to install Debian, and maybe it behaves differently from the netinstall which is the only image I ever use for installation. Or maybe you missed a step? The option to include non-free and non-free-firmware repos is certainly presented during installation from netinstall.

[Lux8]

I just re-installed Debian eight more times to figure out what's going on. For any Debian users who are Free Software supporters, I hope the following insights might help:

1) Above all, avoid using Debian 12 Bookworm's "Live" DVD images for installation. Those will install non-free firmware on your system no matter what you do. Even when I followed Debian.org's instructions for adding "firmware=never" before installing that way, I still ended up with 29 non-free components on my system. That's exactly the same number as without "firmware=never", which means this method of blocking non-free-firmware doesn't work with "Debian Live". Therefore, avoid Debian 12's "Live" CD/DVD image installers completely.

2) If you're a technical person and want to support Free Software, you could install from Debian 12's "NON-Live" DVD. Adding "firmware=never" before installing with that DVD will block non-free-firmware (How to do that: on the DVD's opening "Boot Menu", scroll to "Start Installer" or "Graphical Install", hit Tab, and enter "firmware=never" to that line. I'm not sure if position matters, but I added it just before the "---" and that worked). UNFORTUNATELY, this method also blocks some FREE firmware that Debian 11 Live would have installed. Because of that, my WiFi adapter didn't work after installing Debian 12/Bookworm using this method, whereas my Wifi always worked immediately after installing Debian 11 with purely free firmware.

3) If you're a non-technical (casual) Debian user who wants to support Free Software, you could revert to Debian 11's "Live DVD". While Debian 11's Live DVD also seems to ignore "firmware=never", Debian 11 doesn't include non-free-firmware in the first place, so it doesn't matter that "firmware=never" is ignored. On the other hand, what's great about Debian 11's Live DVD installer is that it somehow recognizes what firmware my WiFi adapter needs, and installs it automatically. Therefore, my WiFi adapter (and everything else on my system) works immediately after installing Debian 11 with its 100% free firmware. Again, that's no longer the case with Debian 12.

So I've just spent several days figuring this all out. The conclusion is that Debian 12/Bookworm is much less friendly for Free Software supporters than Debian 11/Bullseye was. The stuff about "Our Philosophy" and "Why Debian" on the Debian.org homepage is now very misleading IMO, and there's not even a warning on Debian's Live image download page, nor during the installation process, to warn people about this major change to Debian. Even worse, the hard-to-find instructions being provided by Debian.org for how to block non-free-firmware don't even work for the Live installs! In either case (whether aware of the change and instructions or not), people who think they're avoiding non-free-firmware are actually getting non-free-firmware.

While I'm glad to have discovered two workarounds to continue supporting Free Software (either revert to Debian 11 Live, or tediously figure out what free-firmware is needed after installing Debian 12 Non-Live), I'm very disappointed to see how unimportant supporting Free Software is to Debian's leadership at the moment. Supporting Free Software shouldn't require a degree in computer science, but Debian 12 took me several days to figure out. Whereas Debian 11 was always super easy. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard for Debian leadership to provide more Free-Software-Friendly installers (they already existed with Debian 11), or for someone in the community who has skills (which I don't have) to fork Debian into a parallel but Free-Software-Friendly distro.

As I mentioned before, it really doesn't make sense to try to make Debian accessible to more users by taking away what made it appealing to many of its existing users. That's trying to make Debian more popular by taking away what makes it special.

I really hope something changes. In the meantime, I'll be reverting to Debian 11 since it still has a few years of support. I am aware of PureOS, but the Debian community is so great, and with 10+ years of Debian-devotion/love at this point, I'll stick with the workarounds for as long as I can.

By the way, for anyone who values Free Software principles, going forward it seems like a good idea to always check your Debian installations for non-free components immediately after installation. To do that:
a) as root, update your /etc/apt/sources.list and remove any non-free or contrib entries.
b) sudo apt-get update
c) install "apt-show-versions"
d) run this command: "sudo apt-show-versions | grep "No available version in archive"
If nothing is listed, you're good. If something is listed, those are non-free, which means something wasn't done correctly during the Debian installation. Some people will suggest just uninstalling those components, but because those components are closed-source (aka. non-free(dom)), there's no way to know for sure what they've already done in your system now that you've booted. Therefore, if anything is listed, it's best to re-do the Debian installation IMO.

Ironically, Debian 12 was the first time I ever experienced instability on Debian (my Wifi was breaking every couple hours). I have no way of knowing if it was the non-free (closed-sourced) firmware causing a conflict, but now that I'm back to Debian 11, all is stable again.

Links referenced:
• Avoid these Debian 12 Live install images: https://www.debian.org/CD/live/
• Better option for Debian 12, where you'll still be able to select your preferred desktop, but you may need to manually add free firmware after installation, which is annoying: https://www.debian.org/CD/
• Best option as of April 2024 imo is to revert to Debian 11's Live install images: https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdima ... .9.0-live/
• Link provided by wizard10000 with instructions that don't work for Debian 12 Live install images (see section 2.2), which is very misleading imo: https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/

[lindi]

1) Above all, avoid using Debian 12 Bookworm's "Live" DVD images for installation. Those will install non-free firmware on your system no matter what you do. Even when I followed Debian.org's instructions for adding "firmware=never" before installing that way, I still ended up with 29 non-free components on my system. That's exactly the same number as without "firmware=never", which means this method of blocking non-free-firmware doesn't work with "Debian Live". Therefore, avoid Debian 12's "Live" CD/DVD image installers completely.

This sounds like a bug. Which installer did you use? As far as I know the live images include two installers, debian-installer and calamares. Did you first boot to live environment and then start the calamares installer from there?

[Lux8]

No, I don't boot into the live environment before installing. I do use the "live DVD image/iso" but I start the installation from the opening "Boot Menu" on the DVD. Those Live images have always been the easiest way for me to install Debian with my preferred desktop, as they also install the free firmware I need.

As for whether the failure of "firmware=never" to block non-free-firmware is a bug, my testing over the last couple days reveals that the issue actually existed in Debian 11 as well. But it didn't matter much because that release only included free-firmware. But now that Debian 12 includes non-free-firmware, that failure to respect "firmware=never" is a big problem imo.

However, I don't think that fixing that failure is what's really needed. As I mentioned, Debian 11 always installed free-firmware that I need, and that was GREAT. But Debian 12 (Non-Live) doesn't do that when I use the "firmware=free" method. So fixing that "bug" is not a great solution -- because it just creates another sort of bug.

What's really needed is a Free-Software-Friendly installer (i.e. a step during DVD installation that asks if you want to include or exclude non-free-firmware). Without such a step, using Debian has suddently become very difficult for non-experts like me who simply want to use/support Free Software.

Hope this reply makes sense.

[lindi]

As for whether the failure of "firmware=never" to block non-free-firmware is a bug, my testing over the last couple days reveals that the issue actually existed in Debian 11 as well. But it didn't matter much because that release only included free-firmware. But now that Debian 12 includes non-free-firmware, that failure to respect "firmware=never" is a big problem imo.

Yes, indeed this sounds like a bug that should be debugged more. Unfortunately debian-installer is one of the parts of Debian that I personally don't want to touch at all.

What's really needed is a Free-Software-Friendly installer (i.e. a step during DVD installation that asks if you want to include or exclude non-free-firmware). Without such a step, using Debian has suddently become very difficult for non-experts like me who simply want to use/support Free Software.

I understood that the most reliable way to disable firmware loading was using a boot option as opposed to a menu since showing the menu might require loading firmware (for example some accessibility features might require sound output to be working). All of these rationales were discussed in length in 2022 in the debian-vote and debian-devel mailing lists. Perhaps the part "When the installer/live system is running we will provide information to the user about what firmware has been loaded (both free and non-free)" hasn't been fully implemented yet?

[baptx]

I reported the same issue here:
viewtopic.php?t=159027
My workaround was to use the netinst with firmware=never parameter.
However I was not aware that firmware=never would even skip free firmware.
I guess if there is a free firmware missing, an error would also be displayed in the result of the dmesg command, like for non-free firmware?