When is "RTFM," or "Google" Appropriate

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actionM · #21 Post by **actionM** » 2007-05-08 23:15

I would just like to say that I never ask a question unless I've spent hours searching myself. So please be patient with me!

Bulkley · #22 Post by **Bulkley** » 2007-05-09 00:25

It is never appropriate to be rude. Having said that, it is often useful to link to appropriate documentation or other threads on the subject.

rickh · #23 Post by **rickh** » 2007-05-09 00:45

It is never appropriate to be rude. Having said that, it is often useful to link to appropriate documentation...

Linking to documentation is the same thing as RTFM. A pointed suggestion that the simplest Google search will easily locate the answer is not rude.

a0wc39 · #24 Post by **a0wc39** » 2007-05-09 01:23

How about Never
Each person is unique. I may be good at X, but lousy at Y. Intolerance, humiliation, belittlement and all things that fit in these categories do nothing in the willingness of persons to learn or accept Linux as an operating system.

I am a firm believer in "sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt".

IMO anyone who feels it necessary to give RTFM or Google is your friend for an answer is nothing more than an ego-maniac with low self-esteem and suffers from a very bad case of delusions of grandeur.

rickh · #25 Post by **rickh** » 2007-05-09 01:48

IMO anyone who feels it necessary to give RTFM or Google is your friend for an answer is nothing more than an ego-maniac with low self-esteem and suffers from a very bad case of delusions of grandeur.

Yeah. I see that on your only posted question here, You got such a response, and didn't like it a bit. Personally, I found your reaction rather rude, but the link provided to you was a very good one.

Bulkley · #26 Post by **Bulkley** » 2007-05-09 02:05

rickh wrote:Linking to documentation is the same thing as RTFM.

Not quite. RTFM is a vulgar acronym.

a0wc39 · #27 Post by **a0wc39** » 2007-05-09 02:25

Now you are assuming. Please refresh yourself on meaning of assume. (A__--U-ME).

Never make assumptions for or about me. If and when I find it necessary for me (not someone else) to speak for me or express my opinions I will do so. My opinions/beliefs are mine. Not Joe _hit the Ragman. Part of life and uniqueness I guess.

actionM · #28 Post by **actionM** » 2007-05-09 02:34

If someone tells me to RTFM I'll probly tell them to kiss my @ss, and then I'll probly RTFM. But I'll not say thanks!

rickh · #29 Post by **rickh** » 2007-05-09 02:42

If someone warned you against a potential snafu, would you be insulted? It's a vulgar acronym, but it's also an accepted expression in polite company. RTFM is similar. It's not an insult, and it's not an attack, it's just a suggestion.

Bulkley · #30 Post by **Bulkley** » 2007-05-09 02:59

As I read it, RTFM is always vulgar, always an attack, always an insult and never acceptable.

DeanLinkous · #31 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-05-09 03:03

A "manual" is by definition a handbook or instructions. So any answer to a post that does not directly answer the query but instead provides a link to instructions is a RTFM. Go read the friendly manual/instructions located here. It provides exact information, just as you would if you explained it again AND it teaches that resources are available and you can help yourself instead of waiting on a answer.

If someone wants to know about...pinning for example... then some understanding is required to use pinning and others have already explained it so why duplicate it - unless you just want to look l33t and kewl.

I would simple give them the following links
http://jaqque.sbih.org/kplug/apt-pinning.html
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-h ... et.en.html see section 3.10
http://wiki.debian.org/AptPinning
and tell them to post back if they have questions.

or I could of just told them to google for apt pinning and post back if they had any questions and that would be just as good since it would of turned up the exact same info.

Both are a RTFM and both are acceptable and serve the purpose of educating better than I could of done.

Jackiebrown · #32 Post by **Jackiebrown** » 2007-05-09 03:33

Only if I am in a bad mood and even then I will post the answer and comment that a a simple google search found it.

In irc rooms when the same person keeps asking the same question whithout giving people a chance to respond then http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/

sinical · #33 Post by **sinical** » 2007-05-09 03:37

RTFM / Google is a fine answer. The problem with forum based help is people ask the same ****** questions as other have without even searching that help forum for their question.

How many times to ATi or wifi adapters or cant see a screen with X questions come up.

imo if you want a hand holding session, use ubuntu or some other distro that likes to hold your hand and with forums where there are "noob friendly" enviroments.

If you are using debian you have to be prepared for a bit of work to get things working and to do that you should at least read about what you need to do to get xyz working before doing it and then crying for help because apt-get install wifidriver isnt working for you

sinical · #34 Post by **sinical** » 2007-05-09 03:37

Jackiebrown wrote:Only if I am in a bad mood and even then I will post the answer and comment that a a simple google search found it.

In irc rooms when the same person keeps asking the same question whithout giving people a chance to respond then http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/

HAhaha awesome site

Lavene · #35 Post by **Lavene** » 2007-05-09 04:30

rickh wrote:Linking to documentation is the same thing as RTFM. A pointed suggestion that the simplest Google search will easily locate the answer is not rude.

I don't necessarily agree with that. Sometimes the documentation answer the question in a nice, clear way, but actually *finding* that document can be hard for a newbie. So if I can link directly to the answer I do that, or I link to the index and quotes the answer.

Likewise with the man pages. They can be extremely hard to read until you get used to it so I quote the appropriate section, if necessary explain what it means and tell them which man page it is.

To some however this is not good enough. They just can't be bothered to click on a link *even if it explains everything* because it's "the manual" and hence you have in effect given a RTFM.

The funny thing though is that because of the Debian community's (somewhat unfair) reputation for being comprised of rude, elitist assho** people expect to be told to piss off and do their homework so that's what they see if someone dares to post a link or suggest a google search. This leads to the rather bizarre situation:
Linking to an article = bad
Quoting same article = good
I have seen more than once that people don't even look at the link but instead replies with "Don't just give me a f'in link... tell me how to do it!"

It can be rather frustrating some times...

Tina

dmn_clown · #36 Post by **dmn_clown** » 2007-05-09 04:56

I don't think saying RTFM is an effort to humiliate someone, I think it is more of an effort to get the person asking the question to think for themselves, find their own answers, and to further the learning process.

After all if a person has no idea about the man command how will they ever learn to be self sufficient and/or answer their own questions?

bernie_d · #37 Post by **bernie_d** » 2007-05-09 08:42

dmn_clown wrote:I don't think saying RTFM is an effort to humiliate someone, I think it is more of an effort to get the person asking the question to think for themselves, find their own answers, and to further the learning process.

After all if a person has no idea about the man command how will they ever learn to be self sufficient and/or answer their own questions?

But if they don't know about the man command, how are they going to RTFM?

No way is 'just have a look at this link' the same as 'RTFM'. RTFM is shouting (capitals), it's an acronym, which is already elitist, and it contains the word ****, which many people find offensive. And it is in no way a commonly used expression (and neither is snafu, I had to search my memory for bad American war movies to work that one out), except perhaps by linux geeks. To me it is basically saying 'I'm clever, you're stupid, don't waste my time with your trivial problems', though on reflection, maybe it is saying 'I'm clever, you're stupid, and I've got nothing better to do than to waste my time telling other people how stupid they are to make myself feel better (because actually I don't feel so clever at all)'.

If you provide a link, you have made an effort to link a problem to a solution, and you have generally provided some information that may be useful. RTFM does none of that.

To me, it's strange that some people think that links are rude.
To me, it's strange that some people think that RTFM is not.

I generally puzzle over issues and google the hell out them for at least a day before considering posting a query. If I didn't find the answer it's because I was looking in the wrong place, because I didn't know what the right place was. A link in this situation is gold. RTFM is just bullshit. (no-one has RTFMed me, by the way, but I've seen it to people that didn't deserve it)

Like I said before, whatever you say, you're going to upset some people. If you have a vague idea of what people find acceptable, then it's your choice who you upset and how much. Personally I'm happy to offend people who think the world owes them a living. So that means, to me, links are fine, RTFM is not.

I quite like this thread.

Bernie

bernie_d · #38 Post by **bernie_d** » 2007-05-09 08:53

Jackiebrown wrote:http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/

Some links are the same as RTFM. You're still just saying 'I'm clever, you're stupid'.

I guess it comes down to - who do you want to allow into your club/society? At what point do you say 'you're too stupid to be here, go back to mommy ubuntu'?

Just be aware that you will be rejecting people on the basis of language, culture and age, not just stupidity.

Velvet Elvis · #39 Post by **Velvet Elvis** » 2007-05-09 09:57

I think this board would have a much more authentic debian feel if random fortune mod posts could be made.

http://packages.debian.org/unstable/gam ... fh-excuses

Fluenza · #40 Post by **Fluenza** » 2007-05-09 10:30

Personally, I don't see how people could find Debian so difficult. There are MAN pages that give you details about the program and what options are available. There's a DOC directory that contains very EXTENSIVE documentation files -- there's even a file in there that tell's you how to make coffee for Christ's sakes. When I was setting up my DNS server, I consulted a file in the DOC directory and it gave me damn near a book's worth of inforamtion on what DNS was, the different types of DNS servers, and damn near step by step instructions on how to set one up.

If MAN pages and the DOC directory aren't enough, there's the actual program CONFIG files which are loaded with information on how to configure the software. Most of the time you don't really even have to do much. just uncomment the lines that you want to be active, and comment out the lines that you don't want read by your software.

If that's still not enough, take a look in the bookmarks menu of damn near every DEBIAN distributed web browser. There's a boatload of links to online DEBIAN resources in there. The people involved with the DEBIAN community have provided howtos, documentation, and information out the ying yang. Most of the information you'll ever need, you'll never even have to search for; it's included with your DEBIAN installation.

Usually, I only ask questions when I'm overwhelmed with information... That is, there's just too much information to wade through that it's taking me forever to find that one little obscure piece of information that I need. And I'm far from being a Linux expert. I'm very much still in newbie territory... And I've been using Debian for about a year now.

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When is "RTFM," or "Google" Appropriate

When is "RTFM," or "Google," the correct response to a query.