Criticizing Debian against the rules?

[canci]

Debian isn't a service or commercial product, so Debian devs just won't come to your home to felate you. If you want change in Debian, you can go to the Debian developer mailing lists and discuss change.

Also, the laziness of people here is sometimes insulting. Claiming that for example no one cares about the fact that you can't install without working proprietary wifi drivers, while at the same time there are both images with proprietary firmware for Debian and a current discussion from April 2022 of how this can be made more accessible, shows me that you are either a troll, or someone who just won't accept that Debian is a volunteer product of peers and equals, and not a company. If the latter is the case, that's no problem: just admit to yourself and to all of us that you're not willing to use a distro that's based on cooperation and rolling up your sleeves -- or in this case just googling for 2 minutes, so you don't spread lies -- and just go to Ubuntu and use a product. Because that's what you want: someone to spoon feed you a product and for you to just yell out demands. Then just be consistent, pay for the product and please GTFO.
https://ubuntu.com/advantage

[canci]

For those who care about contributing, here's the initial blog post about improving access to proprietary firmware:
https://blog.einval.com/2022/04/19#firm ... t-do-we-do

[Edimion]

WHY Debian NEVER make a poll for what options they could like to have at the beginning on a clear installation?

Because Debian is not Ubuntu or any of the other desktop-oriented easy-mode distros, and it is anticipated that prospective users are able and willing to read documentation and make intelligent decisions?
Or, maybe because embedded platform integrators, webmasters, and the sysadmins for building-sized supercomputers don't care about polls, and a fair portion of Debian's userbase really isn't using it to browse social media on their personal laptop?

if you don't have a Ethernet cables it's really difficult to connect through wifi

Manufacturers of wireless chipsets being too cheap to include a hardware eeprom, and instead providing (often incredibly buggy) firmware as closed-source non-free binaries is not Debian's fault, nor is it Debian's problem.
Likewise said manufacturers failing to provide support or drivers, such that we rely on volunteers to do the same.

If you want better and more streamlined support for such hardware, your choices are to: a) pitch in and help with reverse-engineering, writing drivers, and coming up with ways to include this firmware garbage fire while still being a FOSS distribution by default... Or b) go hassle the manufacturer into supporting their products properly on a not-Windows OS.

POLLS of any options must be done

Why? We already have a polling system, it's called a bugtracker.
FOSS development (and by extension Debian development) was largely born of a meritocracy and/or do-ocracy based community, one where those who put in the effort and do the work get to make the decisions.
If you want to submit some bug reports, patches or RFEs, there's nobody stopping you. Likewise if you want to grab the sources for the installer and make it better suit your needs, or even fork and remaster the whole distro... Who knows, others might even like your changes and run with them.

But polls? Nah. The only thing worse than software developed by comittee is development directed by popularity polls.
All polls will achieve is a bunch of largely non-contributing people armchair-quarterbacking for (and whining about) features that they're unwilling to put effort into themselves... Even more than they do already.

Hi, steve this is not a conversation or something agaisn't the rules.. but I'm trying to be polite. But I don't get really the point for what some distro must be without an easy connection to the red...

About your first point, well everyone know Debian is more a friendly platform for laptops.., and 8 years ago I was really really difficult to find self-assembled hardware (when you go to any shop to buy parts of PC's), but now with the non-official firmware provided for the main page of Debian is trully easy than before.

So ,what's the point to be agree with some decision made perhaps by the main staff of Debian? If even firmware and more common software could be polished if more people want something better..

I don't get the point why you're trying to close a way people could express their opinions, well previous messages were really aggressive, but in my case I think that's not

I've been using free software for some years but also I know free software could WON'T LISTEN their users, like Firefox IRONICALLY a software provided by the main installation of Debian..

But I think the decision to don't give any easy connection to the red comes from maybe a way to be similar with another distros, for example some Arch distros hacker's operating system also don't provide a common way to connect to the red, I guess Debian have collect many features of many software, but perhaps it doesn't have it's own personality

[steve_v]

I don't get really the point for what some distro must be without an easy connection to the red

I'm thinking of of 10 fairly common things one might want to run Debian on, none of them being a laptop or tablet, and none of them relying on "easy" wifi configuration for their identity...
We can play guessing games if you like, but for now I'll leave it at "I'm pretty sure there is a point to a distribution that is as useful on big iron servers as it is on a 20 ton CNC milling machine or a home gaming PC." Debian is that and more, as well as being the base for a great many derivative distributions.
Some of those derivatives even make the "new user experience" and seamless laptop hardware support top priority. Without Debian as a solid foundation, that particular bazaar (and the GNU/Linux ecosystem in general) would be far poorer.

everyone know Debian is more a friendly platform for laptops

Reeealy... Seems I must have missed some marketing material, since in the nearly 25 years I've been using GNU/Linux (about half of that Debian), I've never heard that one.

What I have heard, for as long as GNU/Linux has existed, is that users would be wise to research their proposed hardware before purchase to make sure things like wifi chipsets are supported, and figure out if they will need additional firmware or drivers ready before installing... Especially when it comes to laptops.
This is still perfectly sound advice today, but you can now count yourself lucky that most hardware is supported, and you generally don't have to download firmware separately and load it from floppy disks any more.

even firmware and more common software could be polished if more people make something better.

FTFY. "want" is cheap, but progress requires "do".

I don't get the point why you're trying to close a way people could express their opinions.

I'm not closing anything, merely pointing out why the wireless hardware situation is what it is, and that more constructive avenues for "expressing opinions" already exist. If you want to express one yourself, I suggest you hit up the bugtracker and the mailing lists. Unlike this forum, you might actually find some developers and maintainers there.

That, and the simple fact that if you want something to change, the long accepted way to make it happen in FOSS development is to roll up one's sleeves and pitch in (or pay for someones time working on it). Polls and user opinions don't write software, nor do they solve licencing problems.
IOW, If you want a louder voice, the accepted method is to earn it. If you want something done right now, you'll probably have to either do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you.

previous messages were really aggressive

Probably because some here, myself included, are getting annoyed at the recent influx of ex-windows users complaining that GNU/Linux is not Windows, and are becoming tired of reminding people that Debian is not a commercial product and we are not a paid support hotline.

There is a population of (usually very new) users here who apparently think that simply using the distro, with no contribution of time, money or energy on their part beyond downloading and installing it, entitles them to demand their personal annoyances be fixed. That attitude might be justifiable (though still obnoxious) when the software in question is a commercial product competing for userbase to inflate their share prices, but it's not how things work around here.

I know free software could WON'T LISTEN their users

Free software listens just fine, when users make themselves worth listening to by doing their research, engaging in constructive technical discussion of the issue, and filing bug reports and/or submitting patches.
Posting forum polls is none of those, and if I had a bunch of people asking me to do something (for free) and putting in no effort themselves beyond opining that someone (i.e. not them) should do it, I'd probably not listen either.

like Firefox

Firefox is, IMO, a special case... The current leadership of the mozilla foundation seems (again IMO) more interested in virtue signalling than writing good software.
Unfortunately there are few good alternatives for a default browser, as pretty much everything else is just a chrome(ium) rebrand these days. Chrome is a product of google (which many distrust) and a complete PITA to compile and package.

I think the decision to don't give any easy connection to the red comes from maybe a way to be similar with another distros

Closed-source wireless firmware is not included in the official installation images or automatically installed because doing so would go against core free-software philosophy and taint the distribution as a whole, making it no longer truly FOSS or FSF endorsed (in fact the latter has already been compromised by providing non-free binaries at all, for the benefit of users like yourself).
Other distros have chosen similar stances for similar reasons.
Had you properly investigated why getting wireless working out of the box is a problem (or followed canci's link), you would already know this, and you would have an entry point into the discussions.

Free hint: It's those mailing lists again, because that's where most things get decided... It certainly isn't this user forum at any rate, there's nobody in here but us chickens.

Another free hint: There is a way to get an "easy connection to the red", it's known as an ethernet cable.
Why should someone else work gratis to make your life easier when you won't even spend a couple of bucks on a cable to help yourself? (unless of course your machine lacks a wired ethernet port, in which case refer section 2 WRT researching your hardware).

Aside, Debian long predates Arch and likely whatever "hacker's operating system" (LOL, whut?) you're referring to as well. If there's any follow-the-leader here, it's almost certainly in the other direction.

[Fossy]

there are many things users complian of Debian, much of them by the options by default
but WHY Debian NEVER make a poll for what options they could like to have at the beginning on a clear installation? for example if you don't have a Ethernet cables it's really difficult to connect through wifi
maybe criticizing is too much Debian developers could like to ear but POLLS of any options must be done

Is it out of place to criticize Debian ? As far as I'm concerned everyone should do what they want as long as it's well founded and within elementary rules of decency.
Is Debian User Forum the right platform for this , will it make a difference ?
Nope , insiders have already made it clear ad nauseam that there are not only more efficient ways but also how to contribute positively to the further development of Debian .
However, let nothing hold you back, if you do like to make fun of yourself ? you do like to post in the spotlight ? you do like to insult common sense ?
Then you should better start your own blog or go on farcebook & C° and stay wisely away from this forum .

the humble opinion of an older man who has grown weary of these kinds of "old fishwife topics" that are not only pointless and lead nowhere , but moreover open the door wide for spin doctors , Fud sowers and trollers tout-court ..

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