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About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

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About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#1 Post by Fossy »

https://www.debian.org/vote/2022/vote_003
Time Line : discussion Period: 2022-08-18 > 2022-09-07
The discussion period has been extended with 7 days by the Debian Project Leader.

Which proposal was finally adopted ? A/B/C/D/ "E" versus “F" ( replacing > alongside ) ?
Or are they still brainstorming ?

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#2 Post by cynwulf »

Still under discussion. Proposal F is up next...

With proposals, B to F, it's now a purely political matter, no longer a technical one. Who knows how long that could drag on for...

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#3 Post by sunrat »

Waiting for Proposal G, H, I... :mrgreen:
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#4 Post by Fossy »

What finally sparked this controversy ? I really don't understand the profound meaning of it ?

With all due respect ; this seems a form of intelectual masturbation to me , or do they want to be more Catholic than the Pope ?

Are my perceptions shared ?

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#5 Post by sunrat »

One merely has to search the forum for "firmware" to realise the significance of the issue.
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...and those who have not lost data YET ”
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#6 Post by Fossy »

sunrat wrote: 2022-09-16 17:54 One merely has to search the forum for "firmware" to realise the significance of the issue.
I know enough about Firmware to afford me the luxury of wincing at the thought of being confronted with a problem that any Hardware manufacturer would saddle me with .
Not Debian ( out of the box ) compatible ? well then f**k them ! … I don't suffer from Shiny New Stuff ( Hardware ) Syndrome :mrgreen:
but that's only me ?
... https://wiki.debian.org/Hardware/Certification ?

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#7 Post by Fossy »

First call for votes ; https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/20 ... 00196.html :
Voting period starts 2022-09-18 00:00:00 UTC
Votes must be received by 2022-10-01 23:59:59 UTC

Choice 1: Only one installer, including non-free firmware
Choice 2: Recommend installer containing non-free firmware
Choice 3: Allow presenting non-free installers alongside the free one
Choice 4: Installer with non-free software is not part of Debian
Choice 5: Change SC for non-free firmware in installer, one installer
Choice 6: Change SC for non-free firmware in installer, keep both installers
Choice 7: None Of The Above
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#8 Post by Fossy »

“ Fixing the firmware mess “ by Steve McIntyre
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=y1eks8VYSgk
or
https://blog.einval.com/2022/04/19#firm ... t-do-we-do :
" firmware support in Debian sucks, and we need to change this. See the "My preference, and rationale" Section below.
In my opinion, the way we deal with (non-free) firmware in Debian is a mess, and this is hurting many of our users daily. For a long time we've been pretending that supporting and including (non-free) firmware on Debian systems is not necessary. We don't want to have to provide (non-free) firmware to our users, and in an ideal world we wouldn't need to. However, it's very clearly no longer a sensible path when trying to support lots of common current hardware. "
So far Steve McIntyre

General Resolution: Non-Free Firmware. Call for votes :-)
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#9 Post by jmgibson1981 »

Fossy wrote: 2022-09-17 15:15
sunrat wrote: 2022-09-16 17:54 One merely has to search the forum for "firmware" to realise the significance of the issue.
I know enough about Firmware to afford me the luxury of wincing at the thought of being confronted with a problem that any Hardware manufacturer would saddle me with .
Not Debian ( out of the box ) compatible ? well then f**k them ! … I don't suffer from Shiny New Stuff ( Hardware ) Syndrome :mrgreen:
but that's only me ?
... https://wiki.debian.org/Hardware/Certification ?

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The problem with your answer, and theory in general is that this assumes there will always be free open hardware. Whether one likes it or not the hardware industry has gone toward closed far more than toward open as time marches on. Eventually you won't be able to have a machine that doesn't require something closed. It's been steadily getting more problematic. The manufacturer's that do use open hardware typically cost a fair bit more than the more common standard closed hardware. I don't know about you but these days many people's dollars / pounds / currency in general isn't going as far as it did. Open hardware is becoming a luxury item and it's one most people won't be bothered to keep up with. I know I can't.

Philosophy only takes you so far. In this world money talks and bs walks. Don't got the cash, go fly a kite. Sucks but is reality. Your hardware is good now, but eventually it will go down.

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#10 Post by canci »

Fossy wrote: 2022-09-17 15:15 Not Debian ( out of the box ) compatible ? I don't suffer from Shiny New Stuff ( Hardware ) Syndrome
While that is also my approach, I have to say that, if all new hardware from 2015 onward needs non-free firmware, then this problem will affect all of us at some point. I remember a time when I bought my first laptop, around 2008 or so, and when I could go into any big department store and just grab any laptop from the shelf as long as it was x86. In many cases, if I stuck to Intel and Qualcom hardware, I could get by with just free software. A lot of laptops however did use proprietary video drivers or needed a blob or two. This all changed rapidly when a lot of wifi chipsets started using proprietary blobs, or when Microsoft and their OEM partners started pushing secure boot, weird custom UEFI or when every store suddenly had these 2-in-1 devices that would need a lot of weird drivers on Linux or dodgy git repo compilations.

Nowadays, I only buy refurbished hardware that had a somewhat higher sticker price back when it was new and preferably at a store that can give me Debian Stable preinstalled. I've found one retailer here in Germany that does all that. While all of that is nice and convenient, I'm sad that the days are over when Linux was relatively compatible with a lot of hardware out of the box and I could rely on my few Linux skills to safely install a distro on random laptops.
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#11 Post by Fossy »

A " personal computer " cq a laptop is first and foremost a work tool , at least for me and my household .
Like the vast majority, we must have our household budget in order , preferably with a positive surplus … the name is Fossy en C° , not Rothschild , pleased to meet you .
So no more silly " computer hardware " expenses , whatever , but prioritize.
Of topic : this will not matter to manufacturers, after all, they have to think of economic growth ... with all known consequences ; overcomsumption pollution depletion of natural resources and an unprecedented and almost daily increasing gap between rich and poor ( this is not an exhaustive enumeration ) .
I think the key question is whether the Hardware manufacturers can afford to ignore the real basic needs of the Linux-affiliated community ?
Seems completely imaginary to me , needless to say, we may now argue that Debian is widely established as a “ universal “ :wink: computer operating system .
Wishfull thinking ?
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#12 Post by cynwulf »

Fossy wrote: 2022-09-28 21:24 I think the key question is whether the Hardware manufacturers can afford to ignore the real basic needs of the Linux-affiliated community ?
"Linux" is Android, various embedded, WSL2, IBM/Red Hat, Canonical and SUSE. Everything else is of zero importance to "Big Tech". So the < 1% of desktop hobbyists, who mostly contribute nothing, can be safely ignored yes.

Hardware manufacturers - or to be more correct: x86 OEMs - have a secret deal with Microsoft to ensure exclusivity. In other words, they collude to come up with "features" such as UEFI and Secureboot to make the installation of a different OS more complex and daunting to the uninitiated, without blocking it altogether (which would attract the unwanted attention of lawyers - and particularly the EU). This has largely been a success and today Linux users are a tiny minority and MS still dominates.

WSL/2 is another such blocker to Linux gaining desktop marketshare. It was obviously devised for this purpose.

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#13 Post by canci »

It's damage control, always has been. Unlike food or chairs, it's hard for hobbyists to just make their own affordable hardware. You need corporations for that. That might change in the future, not sure. 3D printing a CPU maybe? xD
Anyway, I think this might have factored into Debian's decision way back to include non-free and contrib into the distro.
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#14 Post by Fossy »

cynwulf wrote: 2022-09-29 07:51
Fossy wrote: 2022-09-28 21:24 I think the key question is whether the Hardware manufacturers can afford to ignore the real basic needs of the Linux-affiliated community ?
"Linux" is Android, various embedded, WSL2, IBM/Red Hat, Canonical and SUSE. Everything else is of zero importance to "Big Tech". So the < 1% of desktop hobbyists, who mostly contribute nothing, can be safely ignored yes.
Hardware manufacturers - or to be more correct: x86 OEMs - have a secret deal with Microsoft to ensure exclusivity. In other words, they collude to come up with "features" such as UEFI and Secureboot to make the installation of a different OS more complex and daunting to the uninitiated, without blocking it altogether (which would attract the unwanted attention of lawyers - and particularly the EU). This has largely been a success and today Linux users are a tiny minority and MS still dominates.
WSL/2 is another such blocker to Linux gaining desktop marketshare. It was obviously devised for this purpose.
Microsoft's goal has always been , and still is , to nip end-user initiative * in the bud .
Leading motive is acquiring the monopoly , which admittedly they have succeeded grandly in … the statistics confirm this indisputably .
No big deal as long as Microsoft does not confiscate our computers by trying to prevent us from using another operating system .
Legislation fortunately ensures that they will never achieve this goal , the manufacturers know this all too well .
I don't give a damn what Microsoft is cooking with Intel , Canonical en Co behind the scenes.
Microsoft will never succeed in depriving us of this right , that they will try to make our lives miserable as much as possible ... nothing new under the sun .

Edit :
It should also be said, the manufacturers certainly do not make it easy for us by their vast range, take eg ASUS ( my favorite brand ) who even have Chromebook's in their range ! Worth mentioning is that by one of Belgium ( Flanders ) major computer retailers do not even offer them for sale ! Only webshops offer them ... curious .... right ?
Finally , as far as I am concerned , it still remains the responsibility of the end user to make the right choice in the type of computer he buys ... Inform yourself well before deciding is the message ... Every brand occasionally has a rotten apple in the basket .

You wanna install Debian : read first Hallvor ‘s contribution : viewtopic.php?f=16&p=760177#p760177

I therefore consistently close nice and mean with , f*ck you Microsoft , Canonical , Google and Co .
Debian is dead ? Long live Debian

(*) Initiative is the ability to make decisions and take action without waiting for someone to tell you what to do .
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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#15 Post by Chaussettes »

Overall I feel it's a good decision for the future of the project. It's a sad reality that the future of computer technology does have to include more and more proprietary blobs, but refusing to move along with the times is something ultimately going to fade you into obscurity and unusability. This has already been the case for a solid chunk of Debian users for years with the existing free installers who run into problems that require them to dig around and find an unofficial non-free image.

I'd like to also point out that Debian has never been, as far as I'm aware, considered a libre system by the FSF because of the availability of the non-free and contrib repos to users. It's my opinion that the fully-libre vocal minority should exercise their choice to move to an FSF-endorsed system that will always remain fully-free like Trisquel.

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Re: About : General Resolution: non-free firmware

#16 Post by Onsemeliot »

Chaussettes wrote: 2022-10-03 15:40 the fully-libre vocal minority should exercise their choice to move to an FSF-endorsed system that will always remain fully-free like Trisquel.
You could just as well argue the other way around: The people wanting proprietary blobs could move to the much more plentiful distros that include proprietary stuff. I might move to Trisquel if the Debian project decides to include non-free code by default. (So far I have only installed Trisquel on very dated hardware.) I am somewhat sentimental because I have been sticking with Debian since 2008 and can't complain about hardware support without proprietary blobs. But of course I usually research the hardware support prior to installing my system.

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