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[Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#21 Post by brainchild »

Bulkley wrote: 2022-12-02 19:28 The reason I switched to Debian is Apt. Because I didn't know any better, I started my Linux adventure with Red Hat and other distros that used RPM. I was totally frustrated with "RPM Hell" as we called it. When I first tried a Debian based distro it was like a huge weight had been lifted off.

The thread proposition has it backwards. Imagine a world in which Red Hat uses Apt.
Yes, "RPM Hell" was very real, and I remember it too, but much has changed. It is worth becoming familiar with the current state of the tools on both the sides of RedHat and SUSE, before anchoring to any conclusions concerning the present or future.

Yes, we could also imagine RedHat using Apt, but such a discussion occurring on a Debian forum would be even more irrelevant than the current one has been judged. For me, it has been interesting how RedHat and SUSE have invested in advancing the RPM tools, and I worry that Debian has three options. First, it may maintain the package system only in its current state indefinitely, and wither away as other systems continue to evolve around it. Second, it may continue to advance its own tools through internal effort, as much as possible. Finally, third, it may enter a broader ecosystem, having the advancements within it readily available at each stage of evolution.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#22 Post by brainchild »

canci wrote: 2022-12-02 11:34 Using a curated Debian Stable system and sticking to the way Debian is meant to be used

So maybe an IOT device where customers expect a constant barrage of features
I suggest you learn about OSTree and RPM-OSTree, before making judgments and extrapolations.
canci wrote: 2022-12-02 11:34 I agree that debugging distro specific errors must be a nightmare for upstream and that in a lot of distros
The issue is not about uniformity of systems across all distributions, only that for some OSTree base image (derived from some distribution), all systems are broadly consistent. An application tested against a base image is likely to succeed on all systems using it, to a much greater degree of reliability than any generally available through the traditional model. The new model also gives distribution maintainers more control over how problems are fixed, by isolating sets of related changes into a single transactional update.
canci wrote: 2022-12-02 11:34 EDIT: One thing that I miss in Debian, and that OS Tree and the likes might offer, is things like fine-grained permissions for programmes. Is that a thing over there? I know it's sort of there in Flatpak.
No, the runtime isolation in FlatPak is not provided by OSTree. OSTree handles the storage and transfer of file tree snapshots. I suggest reading about it, so you can judge its usefulness for yoursel.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#23 Post by canci »

brainchild wrote: The issue is not about uniformity of systems across all distributions, only that for some OSTree base image (derived from some distribution), all systems are broadly consistent.
@brainchild I didn't make judgements, those were musings. I think we might have misunderstood each other. Maybe my problem with OSTree is not so much the technology itself, but more the philosophies that those involved in OSTree have as more corporate minded fast moving distro targets.

But as I undestood it, a mutual OSTree of all distros would be a faster moving target. That would maybe work for Sid, but eventually, we'd have to make a snapshot and make a Debian Stable, because we don't want fast moving targets in our Stable distro. See how I've found a possible use case? So I'm not judging :)

However, I'm not really convinced of, as you put it, that "[a]n application tested against a base image is likely to succeed on all systems using it, to a much greater degree of reliability than any generally available through the traditional model", mainly because none of the RPM using distros have had the same quality standards of stability as Debian. I've used Fedora for a long while, I've used Ubuntu/Mint, I've used SuSe and try out the newer offerings from time to tome. None of them have demonstrated to me that they take stability very seriously. Every one of them felt a bit jank compared to Debian, Slackware or OpenBSD. Jank in the sense that random stuff would stop working and that troubleshooting it was either impossible or something the maintainers weren't interested in as the new package version was around the corner. So forgive me if I'm skeptical about it. If OSTree were an invention using apt or something from the BSD world, I think I'd be more comfortable. Again, not because I think the tech would be much different (although I can imagine that it would be infinitely more KISS than when Fedora makes new stuff :D , but rather because I've been burned by the philosophies of Red Hat/Canonical/SuSe so much in the past.

I will try out OSTree on a spare machine. Maybe you'll convert me, but I suspect I'll be annoyed by how much time dnf takes to update the system. :)
Or how Fedora is missing a random TeX package I've used on Debian for so long. But maybe I'll go: "Wow, that's neat!" and hope that this OSTree thing might be compatible with how things are done on Debian.
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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#24 Post by brainchild »

canci wrote: 2022-12-03 08:59 @brainchild I didn't make judgements, those were musings. I think we might have misunderstood each other. Maybe my problem with OSTree is not so much the technology itself, but more the philosophies that those involved in OSTree have as more corporate minded fast moving distro targets.
Some may wish to use it in such a way, but the technology offers broad benefits toward a variety of human ambitions. I myself have not perceived such a particular association, of the technology under discussion servicing principally the corporate interests, and OSTree is actively used in instances that may serve as counterexamples.
canci wrote: 2022-12-03 08:59 But as I undestood it, a mutual OSTree of all distros would be a faster moving target. That would maybe work for Sid, but eventually, we'd have to make a snapshot and make a Debian Stable, because we don't want fast moving targets in our Stable distro. See how I've found a possible use case? So I'm not judging :)
I would suggest the opposite, that OSTree images are most helpful being built from a stable base. However, I have suggested also a possibility that upgrades given through a base image may prompt an evolution of certain existing distinctions related to management of repositories.
canci wrote: 2022-12-03 08:59 However, I'm not really convinced of, as you put it, that "[a]n application tested against a base image is likely to succeed on all systems using it, to a much greater degree of reliability than any generally available through the traditional model", mainly because none of the RPM using distros have had the same quality standards of stability as Debian.
I believe your assessment mixes several concepts that are largely orthogonal. One is the distribution itself, which determines the content of the packages. Another is the system tools and file format for the packages. Yet another is whether a system uses an RPM-OSTree model versus a traditional one.

Imagining a world in which Debian uses RPM is not to suggest filling RPM packages with crap. It is to suggest using the same package content with different tools and format. The result would be a system just as stable as before. Running a system from a base image generated with OSTree again leads to a result just as stable as before. The stability of other RPM-based distributions is not relevant.
canci wrote: 2022-12-03 08:59 I've used Fedora for a long while, I've used Ubuntu/Mint, I've used SuSe and try out the newer offerings from time to tome. None of them have demonstrated to me that they take stability very seriously.
Fedora is experimental by design. RHEL is thought to be quite stable by many, but others may disagree. Again, it is not relevant, unless the differences are due to RPM versus Apt.
canci wrote: 2022-12-03 08:59 So forgive me if I'm skeptical about it. If OSTree were an invention using apt or something from the BSD world, I think I'd be more comfortable.
Not at all. I encourage a skeptical attitude, just as long as it is not accompanied by one that is dismissive.
canci wrote: 2022-12-03 08:59 I will try out OSTree on a spare machine. Maybe you'll convert me, but I suspect I'll be annoyed by how much time dnf takes to update the system. :)
Sure, read the guide for RPM-OSTree, and try running Silverblue in a VM or extra box. Expect to be frustrated. The paradigm is a completely new one, and it should take time to fully appreciate.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#25 Post by canci »

Thanks for the input. BTW OSTree is already in Debian, so maybe some of this is doable without going rpm:

Code: Select all

apt show ostree
Package: ostree
Version: 2020.8-2+deb11u1
Priority: optional
Section: admin
Maintainer: Utopia Maintenance Team <pkg-utopia-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Installed-Size: 477 kB
Depends: libarchive13 (>= 3.0.4), libc6 (>= 2.28), libfuse2 (>= 2.9), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.43.91), libostree-1-1 (>= 2020.8)
Homepage: https://github.com/ostreedev/ostree/
Download-Size: 171 kB
APT-Sources: http://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye/main amd64 Packages
Description: content-addressed filesystem for operating system binaries
 libostree provides a library and tools for managing bootable, immutable,
 versioned filesystem trees. It is like git in that it checksums
 individual files and has a content-addressed object store; unlike git,
 it "checks out" the files using hardlinks into an immutable directory
 tree. This can be used to provide atomic upgrades with rollback, history
 and parallel-installation, particularly useful on "fixed purpose"
 systems such as embedded devices.
 .
 This package contains the executables used to manage and create
 filesystem trees. It does not affect the boot process for the system
 on which it is installed.
 
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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#26 Post by brainchild »

canci wrote: 2022-12-03 10:49 Thanks for the input. BTW OSTree is already in Debian, so maybe some of this is doable without going rpm:
You have found a package for the basic tool, which you may use to create, send, or receive snapshots on a local system. Installing or using it would have no relationship to whether the base system is formatted through the model provided by OSTree or RPM-OSTree.

However, it has appeared that the discussion, and perhaps partially for reasons for which I am responsible, has drifted from its foundation.

The purpose has not been to argue in itself of the virtue of an operating system based on OSTree, only that I have given OSTree as an example of how package systems are continuing to evolve, to suggest that it soon may become a struggle, or at least an unnecessary burden, for Debian to keep pace with advancement, through maintaining Apt.

Other very interesting problems have become quite noticeable among package systems. One of them is integration of an operating system's native package manager, such as Apt, with the numerous other package managers resident on almost any system for the various scripting languages, such as Pip, NPM, CPAN, and Gems, to name a few of the more common. A system that would broker dependencies between packages provided by these systems and the native one would make life better for most users.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#27 Post by CwF »

brainchild wrote: 2022-12-03 09:36 The paradigm is a completely new one,
Really it's not. Simply one of the many examples of various overlapping methods and a specifically favored implementation.
Rather than a tree, I prefer an onion.
brainchild wrote: 2022-12-03 22:03 has drifted from its foundation.
It has. Within suggestion that APT has fatal flaws, I've read no argument here on any specific issue.

The topic has typical oversight of reality.
1. Convergence is needed, good, required, crucial...it's not.
2. "Getting with the times" is needed..it's not
These, and other vision problems, view the 'market' as a monolithic whole without recognizing the fact that a fragment of todays 'market' is larger than the entire 'market' of the past. The idea that one needs to adopt another foregoes the possibility there is room for both.

..and a fine example of handling my forceful rejection, kudos

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#28 Post by brainchild »

CwF wrote: 2022-12-03 23:55
brainchild wrote: 2022-12-03 09:36 The paradigm is a completely new one,
Really it's not. Simply one of the many examples of various overlapping methods and a specifically favored implementation.
Rather than a tree, I prefer an onion.
Quote mining.
CwF wrote: 2022-12-03 23:55
brainchild wrote: 2022-12-03 22:03 has drifted from its foundation.
It has. Within suggestion that APT has fatal flaws, I've read no argument here on any specific issue.

The topic has typical oversight of reality.
1. Convergence is needed, good, required, crucial...it's not.
2. "Getting with the times" is needed..it's not
These, and other vision problems, view the 'market' as a monolithic whole without recognizing the fact that a fragment of todays 'market' is larger than the entire 'market' of the past. The idea that one needs to adopt another foregoes the possibility there is room for both.
Straw man fallacy.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#29 Post by CwF »

Yes, that's what you offer.
pretty much the basis of all politics nowadays.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#30 Post by donald »

In 1992 Rodney King asked the simple question: "Can’t we all just get along?"

I think we can.

Lets dial it back a bit and keep this off-topic thread on the off-topic that it is.

brainchild's idea may be something others are considering or it might be crazy, either way it and he deserve a bit of respect.

brainchild even went as far as to add a new topic prefix: [Discussion]*, they didn't add [Pile-on], [Be rude], or [Lambast].

They asked for a discussion, if you can discuss it then do so, if you cannot then find another thread to post in or go compile something in python. :)


*We added the new tag [Discussion] to the Community forums, it is a good idea.
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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#31 Post by brainchild »

donald wrote: 2022-12-04 04:36 They asked for a discussion, if you can discuss it then do so, if you cannot then find another thread to post in or go compile something in python. :)
Thank you.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#32 Post by CwF »

A discussion it is!
The standing man is APT.
The straw man is *any* alternative.
still waiting for the reason, not the fluff, of why an inferior minority package manager should replace a superior majority packaging manager?

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#33 Post by brainchild »

CwF wrote: 2022-12-04 05:20 A discussion it is!
The standing man is APT.
The straw man is *any* alternative.
still waiting for the reason, not the fluff, of why an inferior minority package manager should replace a superior majority packaging manager?
You've plainly missed the point, multiple times, so perhaps it is past due that you find another thread on which to focus your attention.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#34 Post by CwF »

Funny,
I've missed the point by circling empty space to show there is no point.

There's room for all, hence my original comment.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#35 Post by sunrat »

I missed the point too.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#36 Post by brainchild »

sunrat wrote: 2022-12-04 07:52 I missed the point too.
It's not a puzzle. There is no right answer.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#37 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

@brainchild:
"A world in which Debian uses RPM" obviously can exist as a parallel world in a parallel time, but it's a wrong forum for asking if in *this* world Debian can switch to RPM.
You can try to convince the Debian developers, but this forum is an users forum, and we have no influence on developers decisions, so this discussion is pointless.

Moreover, You haven't provided a single *technical* reason for switching to RPM - it looks like You don't have one - and IMO developers won't listen to someone who don't have a clue about technical details of package management systems, and to someone who is unable to present a POC involving typical use cases of both solutions, while taking into account differences in special use cases.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#38 Post by brainchild »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 21:29 @brainchild:
"A world in which Debian uses RPM" obviously can exist as a parallel world in a parallel time, but it's a wrong forum for asking if in *this* world Debian can switch to RPM.
What is the right forum? The topic was marked as "discussion", and has been moved to "off topic". What further modifications would you suggest?
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 21:29 You can try to convince the Debian developers, but this forum is an users forum, and we have no influence on developers decisions, so this discussion is pointless.
I think it should have become more than clear by now that I'm not trying to argue any case. Again, it's only a discussion, so try to take it easy. Engage the discussion, if you want, or perhaps it's not for you.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 21:29 Moreover, You haven't provided a single *technical* reason for switching to RPM - it looks like You don't have one - and IMO developers won't listen to someone who don't have a clue about technical details of package management systems, and to someone who is unable to present a POC involving typical use cases of both solutions, while taking into account differences in special use cases.
If you have found a factual error, please point to it, so it may be corrected, or otherwise integrated into the discussion.

Please try to refrain from ad hominem attacks.

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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#39 Post by donald »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 21:29 "A world in which Debian uses RPM" obviously can exist as a parallel world in a parallel time, but it's a wrong forum for asking if in *this* world Debian can switch to RPM.
It is the correct (sub)Forum.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 21:29 You can try to convince the Debian developers, but this forum is an users forum, and we have no influence on developers decisions, so this discussion is pointless.
Please don't say such things.

Users forum does not mean that Debian Developers do not read the forums, primarily the mailing lists are the best point of contact for discussions like this, but these discussions are both welcome and allowed, one such discussion could be the impetus to starting the change or type of change brainchild is putting forth.

When the changes to the forum infrastructure were made last year regarding the administration and hosting, these User forums were moved under the Debian umbrella.

These forums are provided by The Debian Project for users and we consider them to be a resource and open for user discussions, help, and so on.

Speaking of which, as a Debian Developer I would say the discussion is not pointless. As one of the Site Administrators I say the discussion should and shall continue because while it may not be what others want, it is something that could affect a change and that seems to be one of the points of the thread, at least as I see it.
LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote: 2022-12-04 21:29 Moreover, You haven't provided a single *technical* reason for switching to RPM - it looks like You don't have one - and IMO developers won't listen to someone who don't have a clue about technical details of package management systems, and to someone who is unable to present a POC involving typical use cases of both solutions, while taking into account differences in special use cases.
Again, as a Debian Developer I'd like you to pause on speaking for all of us, you cannot attest to what we will listen to, what we read, what influences us, what we have for lunch, and so on.

Discussions do not require POCs.
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Re: [Discussion] A world in which Debian uses RPM

#40 Post by brainchild »

donald wrote: 2022-12-05 01:18 Speaking of which, as a Debian Developer I would say the discussion is not pointless. As one of the Site Administrators I say the discussion should and shall continue because while it may not be what others want, it is something that could affect a change and that seems to be one of the points of the thread, at least as I see it.
Yes, a good way to put it, approaching from a slightly different angle compared to my wording.

By the way, if we would try to imagine, for the sake of argument, how such a transition might occur, it clearly would begin with experimentation far outside the main distribution. The matter is not one of adopting a new feature for some future release, but rather a far more general one, of evolution.
donald wrote: 2022-12-05 01:18 Discussions do not require POCs.
Right! Hooray!

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