Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

[Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

If none of the specific sub-forums seem right for your thread, ask here.
Message
Author
CwF
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2625
Joined: 2018-06-20 15:16
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#21 Post by CwF »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-02-11 18:15 Both the Microsoft-official version of Windows 11 and the (unofficial) stripped-down version run quiet nicely as VirtualBox VM in Sid/Bookworm. This is a very interesting development.
If it does well in qemu/kvm, that would be interesting.

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#22 Post by pwzhangzz »

CwF wrote: 2023-05-26 03:53
pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-02-11 18:15 Both the Microsoft-official version of Windows 11 and the (unofficial) stripped-down version run quite nicely as VirtualBox VM in Sid/Bookworm. This is a very interesting development.
If it does well in qemu/kvm, that would be interesting.
I will be happy to try Win11 on qemu/kvm again if someone is willing to help me and when I have time (probably in July).

The key issue is not whether it will work, but how well it works (especially with the virtual video drivers) and whether it will work consistently surviving system upgrades. VBox has been pretty good in these regards (plus it works with Solaris).

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#23 Post by pwzhangzz »

The open-source 3D driver support for use within KVM/QEMU has long been a sore spot. But as reported in Phoronix today:

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Mesa-23.2 ... GL-4.6-VMs
The Virgl driver within Mesa for allowing open-source OpenGL support within virtualized environments in conjunction with the Virglrenderer is now capable of exposing OpenGL 4.6.
Just wondering if any of our KVM/QEMU experts on this forum will be willing to test it out?

One of the biggest problems with VirtualBox is that it requires a contiguous chunk of RAM to be set aside*. You may have a lot of ram, but if you have been running the host for some time and don't have enough contiguous RAM, the virtual machine may be paged to death. (Although the situation should have been ameliorated by using SSD or NVMe.) Furthermore, a VBox VM can be paused to release CPU but not RAM.

* I don't know if this is still true, but when I need to run Windows in VBox, I always rebooted or booted into a fresh partition, so I can be sure that I have enough contiguous chunk of RAM.

CwF
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2625
Joined: 2018-06-20 15:16
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#24 Post by CwF »

I'm pretty familiar with kvm/qemu but my Windows interest stopped at Win7. I virtualize for hardware requirements not software, well both, but hardware not useable in linux and it's associated software.

If I understand correctly there is no such thing as offline installations for Windows. I am the desert island example, and why isn't the phrase desert(ed) island... https://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html
...and maybe the dissident example too.

The importance of long term endurance of any solution escapes many. Fortunately virtualization can be nested. I've run windows in VBox running in a Debian liveDVD fed by a virtual usb repository launched within kvm/qemu guest...Works fine, as long as there is ZERO online requirement.

All my VM's are over five years old and run under current Debian. Online examples have been upgraded without issue. Static XP (legit registered) images that will never be upgraded continue to be functional under current qemu, though the xml has needed updates.

That would be another question! Do these images transfer/migrate from computer to computer and transferred from file to raw disc and back? XP qcow2 images can.

I'm not a fan of repetitive installs, I am a fan of golden images.
pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-05-27 17:05 * I don't know if this is still true, but when I need to run Windows in VBox, I always rebooted or booted into a fresh partition, so I can be sure that I have enough contiguous chunk of RAM.
I'm not sure what this means. How does a "fresh partition" relate to contiguous ram?
Do you mean a "fresh boot" ?
I can see the advantage of vmware or vbox on limited laptops, but not for big computers. Neither offer any advantage over qemu/kvm when vfio is included.

eugrus
Posts: 34
Joined: 2022-12-01 11:13
Has thanked: 7 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#25 Post by eugrus »

Could connecting to the Windows system inside a VM via RDP be a better option?

CwF
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2625
Joined: 2018-06-20 15:16
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#26 Post by CwF »

eugrus wrote: 2023-05-27 19:51 Could connecting to the Windows system inside a VM via RDP be a better option?
No. virt-manager and virt-viewer using spice doesn't need a physical or emulated network to display the desktop. In fact you can network to the host with vmm and use the windows vm remotely, without the windows vm even having any network.

eugrus
Posts: 34
Joined: 2022-12-01 11:13
Has thanked: 7 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#27 Post by eugrus »

CwF wrote: 2023-05-27 20:59
eugrus wrote: 2023-05-27 19:51 Could connecting to the Windows system inside a VM via RDP be a better option?
No. virt-manager and virt-viewer using spice doesn't need a physical or emulated network to display the desktop. In fact you can network to the host with vmm and use the windows vm remotely, without the windows vm even having any network.
So what?

CwF
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2625
Joined: 2018-06-20 15:16
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#28 Post by CwF »

eugrus wrote: 2023-05-27 21:43So what?
What's the point of RDP?

eugrus
Posts: 34
Joined: 2022-12-01 11:13
Has thanked: 7 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#29 Post by eugrus »

CwF wrote: 2023-05-27 22:02
eugrus wrote: 2023-05-27 21:43So what?
What's the point of RDP?
The consideration of the TS was basically the lowest possible latency for mouse movements.

I didn't test it, but it could well be that this is going to be better with RDP than with an emulated GPU and monitor.

CwF
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2625
Joined: 2018-06-20 15:16
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#30 Post by CwF »

eugrus wrote: 2023-05-27 22:53 The consideration of the TS was basically the lowest possible latency for mouse movements.
Protocols may have differences when some factor is throttled by slow hardware but when sufficient there is no appreciable lag for most activities.

Last I tested vbox it was faster than qxl or virtio, and more 3d capable and also grossly inaccurate. Nothing approach's vfio, even with a simple gpu But qxl is at least accurate enough to use.
I didn't test it, but it could well be that this is going to be better with RDP than with an emulated GPU and monitor.
How exactly is RDP not an emulated gpu and monitor? It is serving a vm that made those choices for it. Once vfio gpu and network are in place X2VNC would be my choice accessing a windows vm.

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#31 Post by pwzhangzz »

CwF wrote: 2023-05-27 19:30
pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-05-27 17:05 * I don't know if this is still true, but when I need to run Windows in VBox, I always rebooted or booted into a fresh partition, so I can be sure that I have enough contiguous chunk of RAM.
I'm not sure what this means. How does a "fresh partition" relate to contiguous ram?
Do you mean a "fresh boot" ?
I can see the advantage of vmware or vbox on limited laptops, but not for big computers. Neither offer any advantage over qemu/kvm when vfio is included.
What I meant by "fresh partition" is that we have a separate partition with VBox installed. Since we are using Debian as our work desktops, we try to keep our operation system as simple (12G with 30G capacity), portable, and as clean as possible. Reboot into a "fresh" partition will assure that we have a contiguous ram for the VM. Of course we always keep all the VMs in a separate partition as well as in high-speed usb sticks.

I will be interested in trying QEMU/KVM with vfio to see how it performs relative to VBox. Running QEMU/KVM created a bigger mess than VBox on the "system" (based on my very limited, newbie experience). Would appreciate if some Debian experts are willing to post their experience in installing (& configuring) their QEMU/KVM.

Debian sid is probably the best Linux distro to play VirtualBox, not only for installation but also for updates. Nothing else can be easier.

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#32 Post by pwzhangzz »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-05-30 19:53Reboot into a "fresh" partition will assure that we have a contiguous ram for the VM.
I have been using VirtualBox since the InnoTek days (on OpenSolaris) before it was acquired by SunMicrosystems and the name change. Please someone tell me if my experience is out-of-date and this contiguity requirement no longer holds.

User avatar
kent_dorfman766
Posts: 529
Joined: 2022-12-16 06:34
Location: socialist states of america
Has thanked: 56 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#33 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

I only skimmed the many posts but am confused by the "VB requires contiguous chunk of memory" comment since under modern OS there is no such thing. Pages are allocated helter-skelter and virtually mapped into what appears to the user task as contiguous space. Was comment in regard to kernel mapped memory pages being contiguous, and if so...why?

Its been years since I used VB. Got tired of poor support and how fragile their XML based config scheme was. I do remember that it supported both pre-allocated disk images, and chunked disk image files that could grow as disk sectors were used.

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#34 Post by pwzhangzz »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-02-11 18:15 In the above test case, I was using a so-called "stripped-down Windows 11" that I downloaded from:

https://archive.org/details/tiny-11_202302
I have created a tiny-11 ("stripped-down Windows 11") VM in qemu/kvm:
tiny11.resized.jpg
Things seem to be pretty smooth but I haven't played this vm much.

CwF
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2625
Joined: 2018-06-20 15:16
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#35 Post by CwF »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-07-13 02:57 I have created a tiny-11 ("stripped-down Windows 11") VM in qemu/kvm:
As I ask, if it doesn't pass the deserted island test it is nothing. ?

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#36 Post by pwzhangzz »

Doing file transfers between host and guest is trivial with VirtualBox; but it is "nothing but" with qemu/kvm. This is probably one of the biggest drawbacks for the latter.

With a Linux guest VM, I can use the virtiofs driver to mount a filesystem from source (host) to target (guest); this can be easily done by adding a corresponding entry in the /etc/fstab file.

For a Windows guest, I have tried using samba. But so far, no success. This is further complicated by the fact that tiny-11 is a stripe-down version. It does not include a web browser, every app must be supplied from the host via file transfer*. But file transfer is exactly what I am trying to do.

:idea: ? ? ?

* However, I can use Microsoft Store to install Firefox:
tiny11.resized.jpg
But there is no Google chrome (from MS Store), which must be downloaded and installed via Firefox.

peer
Posts: 441
Joined: 2017-03-26 10:14
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#37 Post by peer »

I also tried tiny- 11. It worked but it was much slower then tiny-10.
install software is easy when you download it on a usb-stick and mount this usb-stick
Samba did work right out of the box. I just mounted a Z-drive in \\Debian\windows-share (my pc = Debian and my share directory is called windows-share).

But after a few hours I threw it away.

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#38 Post by pwzhangzz »

Our company, probably one of the very rarest, has standardized our office desktop PCs on Debian (bkworm), and I have not used Windows for many years. The main/only reason I am so obsessed about a Windows guest VM is that the tax forms provided by our State gobment is not computer fillable on Debian, and I thought the Windows version of Adobe Acrobat should change this situation. It turned out that "switching" to Windows didn't make any difference. In Debian, at least I can use the layers feature in GIMP/Draw to fill in the necessary info.

On my machine, which is a Ryzen 7 6800H Acer Swift Edge with 16" OLED screen and 16G/1T, tiny-11 works quite OK (as I have mentioned above). Tiny-10 does not include MS Store--a blessing but also a pita when needed.
tiny11.resized.jpg

User avatar
nooblinx
Posts: 29
Joined: 2023-02-03 20:43
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#39 Post by nooblinx »

for file transfer I use scp and winscp

pwzhangzz
Posts: 420
Joined: 2020-11-11 17:42
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#40 Post by pwzhangzz »

Since this thread has been labeled "solved", I have moved it to a new thread:

viewtopic.php?t=155313

Post Reply