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[Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

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only_someone
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[Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#1 Post by only_someone »

Hello,
I have recently moved almost completely to Debian from windows 10, however I am using CorelDRAW which does not work under GNU/Linux and is not executable with Wine as it uses those wonderful .NET Framework program parts from Microsoft.

I have no choice but to use CorelDRAW in a stable way in a VM with Windows 10.
since I already worked with QEMU/KVM via virt-manager (but only with GNU/Linux guests) I tried it with Windows but the video performance was extremely bad, even the smallest movement of the mouse pointer gives me artifacts.

I have already tried the OpenGL 3D acceleration with the necessary drivers (Virt-viewer) for Windows but without success because I always get a black screen.

Is there any way that I can run a Windows guest VM on Debian that will allow me to use graphics editing programs in Windows without problems ?

with kind regards and thanks in advance.
Last edited by only_someone on 2023-02-04 21:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#2 Post by arochester »

Not an answer to your post, but have you looked at Inkscape? It's free and opensource. Available from Repository.
Inkscape is an illustration editor which has everything needed to
create professional-quality computer art. You can use it to make
diagrams and illustrations, technical drawings, web graphics, clip art,
icons and logos. A collection of hands-on tutorials show you how to
combine lines, shapes and text of different types and styles to build
up a picture.

A selection of powerful vector graphics editing tools comes as
standard. There is excellent support for paths, gradients, layers,
alpha transparency and text flow control. An extensive library of
filters allow you to apply realistic effects and extensions allow you
to work with bitmaps, barcodes and printing marks, amongst other things.

Most of the common vector formats are supported, including PDF, Adobe
Illustrator and AutoCAD files, and it has unrivalled support for the
SVG web graphics standard.

Between the suggested packages:
* dia: to export Dia shapes;
* libsvg-perl: to import .txt files (txt2svg extension);
* python3-packaging: used by the Optimized SVG extension;
* python3-uniconvertor: enables several import/export extensions;
* pstoedit: to work with eps files;
* ruby: there are several extensions written in ruby;

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#3 Post by only_someone »

arochester wrote: 2023-02-04 12:48 Not an answer to your post, but have you looked at Inkscape? It's free and opensource. Available from Repository.
I have been testing it for the last 5 weeks with Inkscape but i am missing many functions and the general layout is very different. in addition all my projects that are saved in corel format are not easily accessible in Inkscape.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#4 Post by peer »

have you looked at the setting for cpu and memory in Qemu
Try maximizing these values.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#5 Post by kalle123 »

I would have a look at 'QEMU/KVM GPU passthrough'

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#6 Post by only_someone »

peer wrote: 2023-02-04 13:29 have you looked at the setting for cpu and memory in Qemu
Try maximizing these values.
i have assigned 16 GB RAM to the windows VM and 8 cores of the CPU. the programs in the VM also run well e.g. when i run a CPU benchmark but the graphics performance itself is very poor.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#7 Post by only_someone »

kalle123 wrote: 2023-02-04 13:38 I would have a look at 'QEMU/KVM GPU passthrough'
yes, I already thought of that, but there are some problems. 1-2 years ago I have already tried this but I have never managed to isolate the GPU cleanly and passthrough it because my motherboard has an SLI function that can not be completely disabled. In addition, as far as I know, I would then have to take the output of the forwarded GPU as a video interface which makes fast switching then difficult.

I do not want to edit 3D models or the like in the VM and CorelDRAW is also only CPU loaded and hardly uses the GPU. I'm really only interested in that, for example, the mouse pointer does not jump so much and does not create fragments, it feels like it runs below 15 fps.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#8 Post by CwF »

If you search vfio qxl XP and CwF I've hit on the subject many times.

There are many specifics to consider.

You do need the qxl driver for your windows in all cases.
Acclerated gpu emulation isn't quite here yet and I wouldn't expect it to mature for EOL windows versions, unfortunately.

One solution for a rendered window using qxl accelerated by a Quadro gpu works, but not well enough. Rendered accuracy fails in every method for rendered windows on the host, including wine, including the fancy extended VBox mess. VERY powerful systems can look great in a window with games and art but 3D technical applications will have inaccuracies that look fine, very bad.

I've gone around in circles on the subject many times, have had open budgets to do so, and I use it every day. If CorelDraw does not use GL or DX gpu acceleration your computer may simply be too weak.

So what windows versions are you using? Opps, W10 I see, will it run on XP? I've had best results with XP guest. On what hardware?

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#9 Post by only_someone »

CwF wrote: 2023-02-04 16:08 So what windows versions are you using? Opps, W10 I see, will it run on XP? I've had best results with XP guest. On what hardware?
My CorelDRAW version states that it will only run on windows 7 and above and since CorelDRAW uses the .NET Framework 4.5 - 4.7 I doubt I can get it to run on Windows XP.

I have also outside of CorelDRAW in Windows 10 itself the problem that the mouse pointer e.g. hangs very much behind and creates fragments, also when I move a window or the like.
As i mentioned before i give the VM 8 CPU cores of my i7-6800K running at 4.3Ghz, and with 16 GB RAM. while the VM is running even when i run programs in the VM like CorelDRAW the host CPU usage never goes above 30% and in the VM not above ~45%. Currently I have 2x GTX 1070 installed in my PC, but I can also get my hands on a Quadro NVS 310.

CwF wrote: 2023-02-04 16:08 You do need the qxl driver for your windows in all cases.
are this these virt-viewer [1] drivers ?

---------
[1] https://virt-manager.org/download/ (virt-viewer 11.0 (gpg) Friday November 18th, 2021 Win x86 MSI (gpg) Win x64 MSI (gpg))

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#10 Post by CwF »

I will take a look at those when I have a screen available to take apart that msi and see. I'm familiar with the older Fedora releases and might be out of date.

Yes, XP .net support stopped at 4.0 I think. Both Quadro and FireGL(Pro) drivers work much better in VM's than their consumer (gamer) counterparts.

I don't recommend over-provisioning with many cores and excess memory. This leads to skips in timing worse than just what you actually need. Host hyperthreading hurts VM performance. The two OS's do not see the same thing. Cut back the cores allocation to what is actually utilized and don't use HT cores. There IS a BIG difference in accurate time flow, this could be the primary cause of your skipping issue. Whenever the use case is background, this doesn't apply. Foreground time perception is the issue here.

Roughly my XP results came down to;
~1000+fps native firegl. (still use on occasion)
<1000fps vm vfio firegl (excess heat for limited use)
~200fps vm vfio Quadro K600 (I settled here)
~30 fps vm vfio K600 redirected to QXL window. (helpful only to free a screen)

Ok, I just looked at the MSI only to find I have nothing installed on XP to see past the long meaningless filenames. I can't remember what msi editor I used to use, and won't be finding out! bummer...

Trying that Quadro NVS 310 is likely your best bet.
That XP K600 I just checked with is very reliable and matches host up times of many months and consumes minimal power. In the near future I expect it to run out of things to do.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#11 Post by kent_dorfman766 »

effective graphics pass-thru is my personal holy grail search of VM for the past 12ish years. I've not found what I consider to be an effective solution, although my early on employement forced exposure to netware vmware was about as good as I've ever experienced. I'm purely a QEMU guy here as well. Spice client is my choice for local console GUI access on the host.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#12 Post by only_someone »

CwF wrote: 2023-02-04 18:39 I will take a look at those when I have a screen available to take apart that msi and see. I'm familiar with the older Fedora releases and might be out of date.

Yes, XP .net support stopped at 4.0 I think. Both Quadro and FireGL(Pro) drivers work much better in VM's than their consumer (gamer) counterparts.

I don't recommend over-provisioning with many cores and excess memory. This leads to skips in timing worse than just what you actually need. Host hyperthreading hurts VM performance. The two OS's do not see the same thing. Cut back the cores allocation to what is actually utilized and don't use HT cores. There IS a BIG difference in accurate time flow, this could be the primary cause of your skipping issue. Whenever the use case is background, this doesn't apply. Foreground time perception is the issue here.

Roughly my XP results came down to;
~1000+fps native firegl. (still use on occasion)
<1000fps vm vfio firegl (excess heat for limited use)
~200fps vm vfio Quadro K600 (I settled here)
~30 fps vm vfio K600 redirected to QXL window. (helpful only to free a screen)

Ok, I just looked at the MSI only to find I have nothing installed on XP to see past the long meaningless filenames. I can't remember what msi editor I used to use, and won't be finding out! bummer...

Trying that Quadro NVS 310 is likely your best bet.
That XP K600 I just checked with is very reliable and matches host up times of many months and consumes minimal power. In the near future I expect it to run out of things to do.
I have now longer searched for the QXL drivers and stumbled across a video on YouTube in which this [1] driver was used. After the installation, which was so fast that I thought an error occurred ^^, was displayed in the device manager of Windows "Red Hat QXL controller" and everything ran with a very good speed, no fragments, no jumps except when I move a window too fast.
However, when I vectorize an image in CorelDRAW, it takes a very long time but to fix that I will probably have to pass a dedicated GPU into the VM.

I'm just very surprised that I had found in my many days long search nothing about the drivers. but probably I have searched wrong.

Thank you very much for pointing this out to me, without that I probably would have been sitting on it for weeks, and also thanks for the advice not to over-provisioning too many cores and RAM of the VM.

I will also try it with an Quadro NVS 310 to get the best performance for what I need, i just hope it will go better than my last attempts ^^.

but again, Thank you very much!

with kind regards.

-------
[1] https://www.spice-space.org/download/wi ... -wddm-dod/ >>
(https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/win32/qxl-wddm-dod && https://www.spice-space.org/download.html)

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#13 Post by CwF »

only_someone wrote: 2023-02-04 20:25 "Red Hat QXL controller"
Bingo!
You're welcome.

incidently, xserver-xorg-video-qxl was pulled and is now restored for bookworm.
Debian vm's do well with it also. To make it hard I've tested using virt-viewer remotely accessing a vm server to display the window of the vm local, it in turn is accessing yet another smb XP vm and plays HD well perfectly. It's the wastawatt test!

The alternative virgl virtio gpu is as good, and may have more life in it.

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Re: [Software] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#14 Post by only_someone »

CwF wrote: 2023-02-04 21:07
incidently, xserver-xorg-video-qxl was pulled and is now restored for bookworm.
good to know, I had once for years created a VM with Debian as a guest and it ran directly very well without problems, but about half a year ago I did the same but it did not run so well anymore. I thought I had done something wrong.

CwF wrote: 2023-02-04 21:07
The alternative virgl virtio gpu is as good, and may have more life in it.
yes, I will definitely try a lot with the NVS 310, I'll see where I end up ^^

Generally virtualization interests me very much and the forwarding or use of "outstanding" hardware in them.

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Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#15 Post by CwF »

I believe in the terminal server approach.
With a VM server desktops can travel! And their power can exceed their own hardware!

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Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#16 Post by pwzhangzz »

We don't have any problem running CorelDraw in Win11 VirtualBox under Debian 12:
CorelDraw.png
Qemu used to run Windows VM much smoother than VirtualBox (if I knew the right gpu driver to use for qemu, otherwise it oftentimes wouldn't even run). But things have improved a lot for VirtualBox. No looking back especially for a lowly person like me.
Last edited by pwzhangzz on 2023-02-05 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#17 Post by NFT5 »

I use Inkscape and CorelDraw and CorelDraw is still the better option, especially when working with small dimensions. Run it in a Win7 VM on Virtualbox with only 4 CPUs and 4GB RAM and performance is better than Inkscape on the host with Debian 11.

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Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#18 Post by only_someone »

pwzhangzz wrote: 2023-02-05 08:32 We don't have any problem running CorelDraw in Win11 VirtualBox under Debian 12:

CorelDraw.png

Qemu used to run Windows VM much smoother than VirtualBox (if I knew the right gpu driver to use for qemu, otherwise it oftentimes wouldn't even run). But things have improved a lot for VirtualBox. No looking back especially for a lowly person like me.
which version of CorelDRAW is it ? i use X8. for me over the virt-manager it also runs very well only the vectorization of images takes very long.

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Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#19 Post by only_someone »

NFT5 wrote: 2023-02-05 09:00 I use Inkscape and CorelDraw and CorelDraw is still the better option, especially when working with small dimensions. Run it in a Win7 VM on Virtualbox with only 4 CPUs and 4GB RAM and performance is better than Inkscape on the host with Debian 11.
Sounds good, in general I personally prefer to use the open source alternatives, but the advantages of CorelDRAW outweigh everything I've seen so far in Inkscape or Gimp. although it must be said that Gimp can also compete in some areas well with CorelDRAW Photopaint.

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Re: [Solved] Best option for a Windows guest VM

#20 Post by pwzhangzz »

In the above test case, I was using a so-called "stripped-down Windows 11" that I downloaded from:

https://archive.org/details/tiny-11_202302

Both the Microsoft-official version of Windows 11 and the (unofficial) stripped-down version run quiet nicely as VirtualBox VM in Sid/Bookworm. This is a very interesting development.

[Ed.] Many Linux desktop aficionados, more or less, have a certain degree of inferiority complex. Don't! A properly/smartly customized Bookworm desktop IMNSHO actually can be more user-friendly than Windows or MacOS. However, there are certain Windows applications that are simply not available in Linux. I was wondering how such a remixed Windows 11 iso can exist and be freely downloaded? Nevertheless, anyone who may, just may, have a need to run Windows applications probably should download a copy while it still lasts. Disk space is cheap.

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