[Discussion] [Disappointment with Debian 12

[conclave]

I can only express frustration and disappointment with a serious problem I have continued to experience with Debian based operating systems; Debian, Ubuntu and Mint.

Yesterday on an older desktop machine, HP Compaq Pentium D, 4GB of Ram, AMD Cedar Radeon 2gb Graphic card add on, I decided to install upgrades, some were security for Firefox and Chromium, During the upgrade I noticed a new grub config file being written and initramfs.

After the upgrade I restarted and noticed that Fedora 30, also on this machine disappeared from the grub menu on this 4 different operating systems setup on two different internal hard drives.

When I initially installed Debian 12 on this machine everything worked fine and the grub menu that was installed then did have the Fedora 30 operating system on it that was functional to get into that operating system.

I have had the same problem on other computers with Linux Mint removing Fedora operating systems from the grub menu upon an upgrade or installation of the operating system.

I went into Nautilus, Nemo, and PCManFM and looked for the Fedora partitions and none show up. When I go into Gparted the partitions for Fedora 30 show up there. I also have an older version of Debian 9 on this computer that uses mostly off-line installation procedures. I purchased years ago the complete set of repositories on DVD for this Debian 9 operating system and Fedora 30 for use on this computer. When I went into Debian 9 after the upgrade removed Fedora 30 from the grub menu I looked for the Fedora partitions there and they show up in Nemo, Nautilus, and PCManFM. I went into the boot directory of the partition that holds the Fedora 30 operating system and the entire folder was empty, same problem has occurred in the past with Mint on another machine with several operating systems installed. It appears that Debian has bricked my Fedora operating system making it impossible to use anymore, same problem has occurred with Mint on other machines.

What really makes me upset is that the time involved with this specific installation of Fedora was very intensive. Setting up all the programs using WINE, which Fedora is very good with takes a lot of time,. Again installing from DVD onto your Fedora operating system all the repository discs, approximately 13, takes hours of time, then running through them all looking for packages to install onto your operating system.. In the past suggestions from support sources have suggested to install Fedora last so that your grub menu will be from that operating system since Fedora always picks up Debian operating systems and does not cause this problem. Problem here is that this is the second time that updates have caused the problem. I have re-installed Fedora over and over too many times as a result of this serious problem. There should be some sort of dialogue warning upon upgrades when the package that may cause this problem is involved so that you can uncheck that one for an upgrade. Again, if Fedora can create grub menus that include Debian operating systems why can’t Debian based operating systems do the same consistently? Strange how upon installation of Debian 12 it did include Fedora yet upon first update problems occurred and I find the entire Boot directory in Fedora gone.

Another problem with this update was that an annoying clicking noise is heard unless you have a multimedia player program open or also noticed at You Tube it stops when playing something there.

I presently feel like a first class fool about recently posting here at Debian forum a comment about how good this Debian 12 operating system was for use on older machines. I have been using Linux operating systems for 10 years and presently find my productivity in what I basically use computers for Graphic Arts and Digital Painting has declined significantly as a result of all the problems and time experienced using some of these Linux operating systems. If this nonsense continues I will have to make some serious changes and drop the use of Linux operating systems causing all these problems. This is no longer a learning experience as it was in the first years of using Linux, lately it’s becoming a time consuming frustrating situation.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

https://www.debian.org/releases/bookwor ... -os-prober

Please read the Release Notes before ranting...

[livix07]

I can only express frustration and disappointment with a serious problem I have continued to experience with Debian based operating systems; Debian, Ubuntu and Mint.
...
and presently find my productivity in what I basically use computers for Graphic Arts and Digital Painting has declined significantly as a result of all the problems and time experienced using some of these Linux operating systems. If this nonsense continues I will have to make some serious changes and drop the use of Linux operating systems causing all these problems. This is no longer a learning experience as it was in the first years of using Linux, lately it’s becoming a time consuming frustrating situation.

I am sorry that you are frustrated and upset with Debian and other Linux distros. Me too was, occasionally, but PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE FOLLOWING REALITY:

- most of the hardware manufacturers DO NOT PROVIDE MUCH SUPPORT (IF ANY) FOR LINUX. Therefore Linux developers have to find ways to provide Linux support for that hardware

- Linux Debian (like most of the other Linux distros) is FREE. Did you pay something for it/them? Have you ever made any donation to them?

As such, please understand IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE LINUX DEVELOPERS THAT MOST OF THE COMPANIES THAT MAKE HARDWARE DO NOT PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR LINUX. That is what I beg you to understand and be aware of.

with best regards

[Spinnekop]

https://www.debian.org/releases/bookwor ... -os-prober

Please read the Release Notes before ranting...

Yup - This is not a debian issue it's a grub change. Same on non-debian based distros, (I also use arch btw!)

[cds60601]

Yesterday on an older desktop machine, HP Compaq Pentium D, 4GB of Ram, AMD Cedar Radeon 2gb Graphic card... (Deleted to the end)

I have been using Linux operating systems for 10 years and presently find my productivity in what I basically use computers for Graphic Arts and Digital Painting has declined significantly as a result of all the problems and time experienced using some of these Linux operating systems.

One can assume, that if you are using a Pentium D w/4 GB of ram for graphic arts and digi-painting, one can make a valid observation that perhaps its time to increase your productivity time by investing in modern hardware.
That alone would probably reduce the time spent tinkering to get old hardware running for what appears to be more resource intense work to be done.

For older hardware, there are options like NetBSD (it runs on a toaster - to coin the phrase) or perhaps a Linux distro that is intended to run on minimal/old hardware whereas Debian would not be the best option.

[None1975]

perhaps its time to increase your productivity time by investing in modern hardware.
That alone would probably reduce the time spent tinkering to get old hardware running for what appears to be more resource intense work to be done.

What a genius and simple solution. I applaud standing up. Along with all the monopolistic capitalists…

P.S.

Old computers work fine with Debian systems as well. And NetBSD is a very specific operating system...

[conclave]

I can only express frustration and disappointment with a serious problem I have continued to experience with Debian based operating systems; Debian, Ubuntu and Mint.
...
and presently find my productivity in what I basically use computers for Graphic Arts and Digital Painting has declined significantly as a result of all the problems and time experienced using some of these Linux operating systems. If this nonsense continues I will have to make some serious changes and drop the use of Linux operating systems causing all these problems. This is no longer a learning experience as it was in the first years of using Linux, lately it’s becoming a time consuming frustrating situation.

I am sorry that you are frustrated and upset with Debian and other Linux distros. Me too was, occasionally, but PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE FOLLOWING REALITY:

- most of the hardware manufacturers DO NOT PROVIDE MUCH SUPPORT (IF ANY) FOR LINUX. Therefore Linux developers have to find ways to provide Linux support for that hardware

- Linux Debian (like most of the other Linux distros) is FREE. Did you pay something for it/them? Have you ever made any donation to them?

As such, please understand IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE LINUX DEVELOPERS THAT MOST OF THE COMPANIES THAT MAKE HARDWARE DO NOT PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR LINUX. That is what I beg you to understand and be aware of.

with best regards

I have made a $100 donation through the Debian.org web site in the past, also $100 to AV Linux. I have also supported by purchasing through OS Discs live DVDs and the complete repository set for 9.4 and 10. Have also purchased 5 Linux books. I understand your feelings about no hardware support for Linux yet my specific problem is more related to how the script that automatically writes a grub menu is flawed. I have used the desktop computer that this problem occurred on for many years and installed Debian and Fedora over and over again for years. I'd like to know why upon installing Debian 12 the script that writes the grub config menu did pick up Fedora and I had no problem getting into all 4 operating systems then this upgrade removed Fedora from the grub menu and now I also cannot find any files in the Boot directory of Fedora 30.

I was going to make another donation to Debian after installing Debian 12 since it seemed to run well and I was able to have an operating system on this older computer that would allow me to use on the internet with security update support. All the other operating systems Debian 9, Fedora 30, and Windows XP Professional no longer have any support for security patches and updates making them a higher risk to use on-line yet very good for working with older software that I still use off-line. I am able to use stand alone versions of Firefox on Debian 9 and Fedora 30 for internet yet all other support is no longer available making Debian 12 the best option for going on line with this computer. After this problem that will cost me many hours of re-installing Fedora 30 I have changed my mind about another donation.

[conclave]

Yesterday on an older desktop machine, HP Compaq Pentium D, 4GB of Ram, AMD Cedar Radeon 2gb Graphic card... (Deleted to the end)

I have been using Linux operating systems for 10 years and presently find my productivity in what I basically use computers for Graphic Arts and Digital Painting has declined significantly as a result of all the problems and time experienced using some of these Linux operating systems.

One can assume, that if you are using a Pentium D w/4 GB of ram for graphic arts and digi-painting, one can make a valid observation that perhaps its time to increase your productivity time by investing in modern hardware.
That alone would probably reduce the time spent tinkering to get old hardware running for what appears to be more resource intense work to be done.

For older hardware, there are options like NetBSD (it runs on a toaster - to coin the phrase) or perhaps a Linux distro that is intended to run on minimal/old hardware whereas Debian would not be the best option.

This problem I have experienced with the Fedora operating system getting removed from the grub menu has also occurred on a newer computer with Intel I7 and 32 gb of memory with Linux Mint, a Debian based operating system.

[conclave]

https://www.debian.org/releases/bookwor ... -os-prober

Please read the Release Notes before ranting...

Yup - This is not a debian issue it's a grub change. Same on non-debian based distros, (I also use arch btw!)

BINGO! I believe you have found the reason for this problem. I would imagine that other Debian based operating systems have also followed this procedure since the same thing has occurred on other machines with Mint and Ubuntu. Unfortunately with this situation I will no longer be able to have updates installed if they take the liberty to remove other operating systems from the boot grub menu. The only way to use this older machine and get updates would be running only Debian on it and removing the other three operating systems. That defeats the purpose of why I am keeping the other operating systems on this machine. I use DVD repository discs for Fedora 30 and Debian 9.4 to allow me the ability to use packages and software off-line since these operating systems are no longer supported, along with Windows XP Professional, a very good system with older software that I use for graphics such as the KPT Collection and U-Lead Photo Impact 5 that produces excellent do it yourself custom designed digital frames for all my digital paintings.

[sunrat]

You can revert to the old behaviour of os-prober by editing one line in grub config. It's explained in the release notes.

[Fossy]

I don't want to come across as an 'operating system' basher of any operating system , but I don't think it needs further explanation that when they are in use on the same computer it almost always gives rise to serious problems in one way or another and have opted not to get involved with multi-boot systems .
If you are up for it ... if you can afford it, then hesitate no more, go for a fresh install on separate computers suited for the respective operating systems ... unless you prefer / give priortity to spend ad vitam aeternam on troubleshooting , and let the pleasant use of computers pass you by .
Remembering a saying of my grandfather blissed ; " Avarice shuns wisdom "
ps : and always reserve at least one system for the latest edition of Debian!
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