[Discussion] Psychoanalysing proponents of two wheels

[Uptorn]

(Split from the discussion at Microsoft is Introducing Sudo for Windows)

A general quandary on the perception that is innate to many in which "proprietariness" equates to good and legitimate. It can probably be broken down in several different ways. Among them, the brand worship that expresses itself so strongly in the technology industry. The following is my own observation based opinion.

First, let's define some subdemographics:
Group 1) Uses Windows or other proprietary OS exclusively, and has never heard of linux. Uses whatever comes preinstalled on their devices without ever giving it a second thought.
Group 2) Uses Windows or other proprietary OS almost exclusively, has heard of or even tried linux but declines to use it. Uses preinstalled OS or installed Windows manually.

The delineation can basically fall between "techies" and "non-techies". Group 1 are the largest, by far. Most people do not wish to think about what they use. Most don't even know what browser they use (or what a browser is!), in my experience. Group 1 also tend to take much more amicably to the notion of taking up a different operating system, compared with Group 2. Differences aside, why is it that each can be so hostile to the suggestion to use freedom-respecting software?

In no particular order;

• It is an unknown (Group 1). Aversion to the unknown is simply a human trait. It is unfamiliar, therefore it must be bad.
• It is different (Group 2). User-facing software is like a language. It takes time to learn and even more to become second nature. The "techies" have it even worse. The prospect of migrating to another system is even more daunting when one has sunken such great investment of time and knowledge into an existing system.
• The suggestion that one changes their system software insinuates that their current choice is wrong. Wrong or not, it is the fact that their "decision" is being challenged that they find upsetting. Again, Group 2 are more put off by this.
• Their primary value may not be liberty or sovereignty, but is often actually convenience and amusement. Even if it can be proven to them that linux is less of a hassle, the prospect of migrating to linux is such a perceived inconvenience so as to be dismissed entirely.
• Lack of knowledge as to the extent of how they're being exploited. Most do not fully comprehend the extent to which they are being surveilled, restricted or monetized because they simply lack the overarching knowledge of computing required to understand it. Group 1 comprise the majority of this condition.

I sometimes wonder if the more wild explanations might have some merit. Consider, for example, the crabs in a bucket perception. Perhaps they're aware of how mistreated they are by their software and feel powerless to change it, so they seek to sabotage others who achieve any greater success in "leaving the bucket". By spreading FUD and belittling solutions or those who suggest them.

Or maybe it's more simple, like with the brand worship I mention earlier. The idea that only things with the backing of big commercial vendors can be of any good. This sort of mentality that the vendor is a god that grants the holy product to the people and dare not be questioned. Maybe it taps into something primal in the human psyche. Those who oppose the group consensus are blasphemous heathens!

This is the end of my speculative rope. I am mostly perplexed by the Group 2 techies, who often have had some contact with libre operating systems and maybe even understand the issues of digital freedom and privacy... and yet they crawl back to Windows each and every time. "It's just not ready yet!" they cry. Ready for what? What measuring stick are you using to gauge this imaginary goal post? Sometimes I wish I could peer into the mind of a Windows adherent. But I'm simultaneously glad that I cannot.

[donald]

The premise of groups and argument is a bit flawed.

1) Some people just prefer 'closed' ecosystems and do not wish to be system administrators on work or pleasure machines. Work and such are much easier with someone else doing the updates, locking the system down in a fashion that one cannot really break it, or providing a means to upgrade between major versions at minimal cost of just a newly purchased self serviced system device. Cell phones are a great example of this.

2) There are lots of other examples that would have been better offerings for comparison: Apple, Verizon, Encrypted Media Extensions. Social networks are well are great examples: Facebook (Facebook, Meta, Instagram, Threads), LinkedIn there are a lot of closed systems out there and for the majority of the userbase that system is not just fine but preferred. This needs to be accounted for.

[jmgibson1981]

Perhaps they're aware of how mistreated they are by their software and feel powerless to change it, so they seek to sabotage others who achieve any greater success in "leaving the bucket". By spreading FUD and belittling solutions or those who suggest them.

Or maybe they are tired of Linux users claiming they have a greater success and that everyone else is wrong. There are no such thing as Windows zealots. Countless open source ones though who feel the need to look down on others that don't use their treasured open source software. Their FUD spreading is a direct result of being treated as lesser users.

[Hetzer]

Their primary value may not be liberty or sovereignty, but is often actually convenience and amusement. Even if it can be proven to them that linux is less of a hassle, the prospect of migrating to linux is such a perceived inconvenience so as to be dismissed entirely.

It's not "may not", these ain't even their secondary values. Sometimes it's even "better" - one bemoans all of this, but won't give it a end because changes ain't convenient and even attack the solution which would help him/her
I call such situation "nóż w dupie" (which tlanslates to "knife in the butt") - the "knife" being corpos' malware. One will feel the pain of that "knife" (inconvenience, irritation done by it) and complain all the time, but won't "pull out that knife" since it means "bleeding" (bigger inconvenience) for a short time, completely skipping that after it it's all gone
Example? I and some people were on discord, we all hated it, but when I found (or de facto I got it from colleague) solution - somehow nobody wanted a switch and this "horrible discord" became okay... Really?
They all switched to Signal (which was that solution) only because I forced 'em. Though two of them still use discord and won't completely remove it from their lives, while they still throw jeers at it
Since then I've started to doubt if humen really use brain. If they did, they'd not have self-contradicting way of "thinking"

Lack of knowledge as to the extent of how they're being exploited. Most do not fully comprehend the extent to which they are being surveilled, restricted or monetized because they simply lack the overarching knowledge of computing required to understand it. Group 1 comprise the majority of this condition

True, but it also applies to "Group 2". If somebody is "aware" of it and does nothing with it, it means one ain't really aware of it

The idea that only things with the backing of big commercial vendors can be of any good

I believe it's the reason why people (of Group 2, the first group doesn't even know such exists) think of free software as "open-source community edition", which sounds for them like "worse version of commercial software for free"

1) Some people just prefer 'closed' ecosystems and do not wish to be system administrators on work or pleasure machines. Work and such are much easier with someone else doing the updates, locking the system down in a fashion that one cannot really break it, or providing a means to upgrade between major versions at minimal cost of just a newly purchased self serviced system device. Cell phones are a great example of this.

Linux Mint is a good example of very newbie-appealing and makes a good introduction to free software (they could avoid promoting non-free software, though). A lot is managed by GUIs so new one has time till he/she'll need "scary" terminal to do something more advanced
And won't agree that work is easier on "self-managing" system - such system often gets in a way and does things ye don't want it to do but it does because company behind it thinks they know better. That's the main reason I hate AOSP and especially OEM Android
Anyway, these systems tend to break a lot for many reasons, i.e. crappy code, malware and user not caring about computer. Instead of making fool-centric systems, make user use his/her equipment as should be
Fool will always screw something up, no matter how fool-proof system will be

there are a lot of closed systems out there and for the majority of the userbase that system is not just fine but preferred. This needs to be accounted for

I think that following quote adresses this:

Lack of knowledge as to the extent of how they're being exploited. Most do not fully comprehend the extent to which they are being surveilled, restricted or monetized because they simply lack the overarching knowledge of computing required to understand it

Or maybe they are tired of Linux users claiming they have a greater success and that everyone else is wrong. There are no such thing as Windows zealots. Countless open source ones though who feel the need to look down on others that don't use their treasured open source software. Their FUD spreading is a direct result of being treated as lesser users

Well, I think that's not true:
- There are a lot of "Windows zealots", one of them happened to be in one of former discord groups I've had. His only "argument" was "It's linuxer, don't listen to him" and "thought" (I doubt if such thing has thinking capability) that Windows is the best without justifying that opinion
Omitting the fact he called me "linuxer" when I only knew how to operate GUI-driven Linux Mint and knew barely anything about software freedom (though I've already seen it's pluses)
- While we have a lot of Linux users being that way, I think that's not case with Debian(-derived), which is currently the majority of GNU/Linux. Note that such people are often hated by normal GNU/Linux users as well
Being honest I've faced more hate from "windowsers" against us than vice-versa. We try to tell them what's wrong with that corporate crap, they either act like they heard nothing or throws "Who cares?"-like or "linuxer xD" responses
Also remember their way of "thinking" of Linux as "worthless and obscure thing for IT masonery" which I've stumbled upon too many times already. Plus to that as I've mentioned before, they don't even try to listen / take look at it

[wizard10000]

I think for most people a computer is an appliance, not a lifestyle

[Hetzer]

I think for most people a computer is an appliance, not a lifestyle

Not sure how people see computers (Not gonna lie, yer post gave me nice question to ask them), but I think that as of today where most paperwork, shopping, multimedia and other various things are done on computers - computer ain't just an appliance, so it's important to know your computer and have control over it

[Uptorn]

It's not "may not", these ain't even their secondary values. Sometimes it's even "better" - one bemoans all of this, but won't give it a end because changes ain't convenient and even attack the solution which would help him/her
I call such situation "nóż w dupie" (which tlanslates to "knife in the butt") - the "knife" being corpos' malware. One will feel the pain of that "knife" (inconvenience, irritation done by it) and complain all the time, but won't "pull out that knife" since it means "bleeding" (bigger inconvenience) for a short time, completely skipping that after it it's all gone

That makes me think of this old skit. Exactly how trying to help Windows and Discord complainers feels like.

Example? I and some people were on discord, we all hated it, but when I found (or de facto I got it from colleague) solution - somehow nobody wanted a switch and this "horrible discord" became okay... Really?
They all switched to Signal (which was that solution) only because I forced 'em. Though two of them still use discord and won't completely remove it from their lives, while they still throw jeers at it
Since then I've started to doubt if humen really use brain. If they did, they'd not have self-contradicting way of "thinking"

It has taken me all too long to realize that online posts complaining about the irritations of Windows are not open invitations to give suggestions. They just want other users to join them in complaining and agreeing how terrible it is that they must suffer through such a change or imposition.

- There is a lot of "Windows zealots",

My first inclination is to disagree, but then I must recall that places exist like "/r/pcmasterrace" where there are many to be had. Calling it "zealotry" is a little bit harsh maybe. The way that they wield the power of group consensus is striking, although that's probably more of a reddit problem than anything.

I think for most people a computer is an appliance, not a lifestyle

I beg to differ. Just as with cars & roads, computers have become inseparably woven into the fabric of modern life. Most people today rely on them for work and other essentials. To compare either of these things to, say, a toaster is greatly dishonest. Perhaps I would have agreed with you back in the 1980s or 1990s when the use of computers was still "optional".

[CwF]

I'd guess it is a generational view, so some analogies:
A century ago anyone who drove a car knew how to make it work because they had to. Fixing it was based on how things work and not what brand it is. Decades later the brand pride starts to kick in, toyota, mercedes, and ford mechanics know different things and use different tools. After more decades pass the car is fully commoditized to the point owning or driving it yourself is an option, how it works is irrelevant. In the end stages of this progression when it stops working, we get a new one.

In a similar way the renaissance of personal computers doing everything has run its course. No longer is there anything that does everything. The 'importance' of a modern device being used for 'everything' can not be conflated with a users ability to fix it or even know how it works. 'Training' is what users experience now and that is what passively determines Brand loyalty - they'll give me a new one, I'm used to them, that's what I started on. Habituation.

The two groups are 'operators' and 'fixers'. That's >98% and <2%.

Very few people are ever aware of all the factors that go into a choice before the choice is made. They are not offered a 'blue' device or the 'red' device with a full explanation of the ramifications of their choice. They are simply handed a device, their first device, a common device - a commodity, an appliance of sorts honed by time. It just happens to be blue because it is demonstrably the fastest path to operational efficiency. A choice was not made, it was inherited. People are proud of their place, their inheritance, regardless of what it is.

[Dr Cheeto Cornchip]

I think for most people a computer is an appliance, not a lifestyle

I consider it to be more of a toy. Like Gameboys and space telescopes.

[donald]

I'd guess it is a generational view, so some analogies:
A century ago anyone who drove a car knew how to make it work because they had to. Fixing it was based on how things work and not what brand it is. Decades later the brand pride starts to kick in, toyota, mercedes, and ford mechanics know different things and use different tools. After more decades pass the car is fully commoditized to the point owning or driving it yourself is an option, how it works is irrelevant. In the end stages of this progression when it stops working, we get a new one.

In a similar way the renaissance of personal computers doing everything has run its course. No longer is there anything that does everything. The 'importance' of a modern device being used for 'everything' can not be conflated with a users ability to fix it or even know how it works. 'Training' is what users experience now and that is what passively determines Brand loyalty - they'll give me a new one, I'm used to them, that's what I started on. Habituation.

The two groups are 'operators' and 'fixers'. That's >98% and <2%.

Very few people are ever aware of all the factors that go into a choice before the choice is made. They are not offered a 'blue' device or the 'red' device with a full explanation of the ramifications of their choice. They are simply handed a device, their first device, a common device - a commodity, an appliance of sorts honed by time. It just happens to be blue because it is demonstrably the fastest path to operational efficiency. A choice was not made, it was inherited. People are proud of their place, their inheritance, regardless of what it is.

Quoted the whole post because it is excellent.

I ride and own several motorcycles and like them because for most of them I can fix them with a screwdriver, some duct tape, and several kicks from my foot on the side of the road. However only 1 of my motorcycles is like this, the others require a dealership or certified mechanic. To be fair the sport bike are 'advanced' track style racing bikes, ABS, riding modes, and so on, the technology in them is far past what I or anyone I know can do even with the dongle to download error codes. I have accepted it but it has changed my riding style tremendously, the track bikes I use now for errands in the city too much power for the city....but I can walk it home if needed. Long trip? Back to the pre 2010 year bikes, a satchel, and duct tape.

[CwF]

excellent.

Thank you!

After many good bikes from the Spencer and Lawson days I grew tired of announcing my presence on the road. In '94 I was one of the first lucky ones to get a new generation R1100GS. She is still in the garage today, still awesome, still the daily driver, and 30 years ancient. I've done all the work, even some fabrication. I've let all the others go.

Not only is it like a cat on the road, with a change of rubber it is a freakishly capable mountain goat. Wherever it is nobody hears it coming a mile away, instead the surprise is already in the past tense - WTH was that!

I've been told by some youngin's that I'm the steampunk guy. I had to look it up, yep. I thought I was a renaissance man, ok. Now I want to build a CX/GL 650Tish thing with spoked Metzelers, the solo saddle, and liquid filled mechanical gauges that glow blue. I will be looking at the recently reincarnated TransAlp because I actually do most of my road miles on two wheels. I don't mind the tech any more. Modern fixing is actually easier that it used to be. Try balancing a freshly built bank of carbs, or perfecting bucket shimmed valves. Modern is easier as long as I have the appropriate tricorder...

My LBZ Duramax, reflashed with my own tuning (onboard EFILive tricorder), will be declared illegal on public roads long before it ever wears out. As far as the 200k+ Fiero, it will live as long as I say so. I gutted it in '03, and wore it out again, we'll see what happens.

I do have Phd's in cyanoacrylic and cloth backed adhesives membranes, along with certificates in Applied Blunt Force.

[donald]

@CwF The R1100GS was hands down one of the best bikes they made, then they went for engine, engine, engine and power. Great, but why? Different lines.

I have 2 more bikes to get one of them being a Moto Guzzi, the model I want is right on the line of need a tech or a downhill push.

So is cyanoacrylic and membranes code for carbon and light weight fibers?; because I will have many projects for you. At cost or mark up of course. I have a stable of Ducs right now and the girls are ready for the summer with new outfits.

BRB going to rev limit in the driveway for the neighbors.

[peer]

I own a moto guzzi v7 (1976)

[sunrat]

I own a Shogun Metro late 90s model.

[dilberts_left_nut]

Back in the day my mates all rode bikes.
On a road trip to a distant pub, I'd still get there first and be warm and dry as well.

[Dr Cheeto Cornchip]

Custom Fuji Crosstown myself. You know, they say you need to buy a steel frame touring bike for long distance rides, but I find this is not at all the case. They advertise the steel frame of touring bikes as being necessary to hold the extra weight that bikepackers carry, but we carry significantly more weight than most bikepackers and haven't had any problems with our standard aluminum frames.

Actually, I broke my rear rack once after putting too much weight on it, but the frame is still perfectly fine. Luckily I remembered seeing a virtually identical rack in a nearby bike shop so all I had to do was drill out a broken screw and pick up the replacement rack lickety split. Borrowed the drill from a nearby yarn shop, believe it or not.

It was essentially the same rack, Ibera PakRak, except rebranded under the Sunlite name and the adjustible steel attachment points had been replaced with lighter weight aluminum attachment points. Would've thought this might lower the weight limit, but it was actually rated to carry ten more pounds than the original.

[CwF]

So is cyanoacrylic and membranes code for carbon and light weight fibers?

That's super glue and duct tape! Actually I'm 25 years out of that now, no longer geared up. Carbon fiber and Kevlar can be laid up like fiberglass, vacuum bagged, or form pressed. The secret is the epoxy, many types. It takes 7+ layers and back then raw material was $50+ per yard. Most common stuff is a single outer layer, fake. Real stuff is pressed with aluminum molds and baked, meaning entry cost is often 5 digits for one part, amortized there after.

Shogun Metro

Cool. The market has matured much now. Hub motors kits are everywhere. I intend to retrofit my carbon fiber K2 mountain bike, another past rarity. I'm unsure, front or rear hub? Or crank? Or maybe triple motored? I'm already on the drawing board (I do have one still) for tubular 18650 battery mounts. It'll be minutes of boost and 0 to max crash speed in 3 seconds!

On a road trip to a distant pub, I'd still get there first and be warm and dry as well.

Well I could arrange a tour snowcat to take you to the top mountain pub if you don't want to tempt fate on a snowmobile. Wheeled things not viable at the moment...

haven't had any problems with our standard aluminum frames.

Aluminum fatigues, granulates, and cracks away. I can tig or stick it, and it always gums up my grinders. I've fabed with it some, by request only. Personally, it's the worst material of all and I hate working with it. Good for non structural stuff, housings, skins, diamond plate decks and the like. Framework won't survive decades. If there is the room, or available volume of space, then the newer cast aluminum silicon alloy stuff is decent, it just needs to be much fatter than other materials. When that stuff fractures it's functionally not fixable. Cosmetically, sure.

[CwF]

Oh ya, like a cheap welder, now days I have a maximum 30% duty cycle. I take forever...

[Dr Cheeto Cornchip]

I think most bicycle frames are aluminum, unless you're willing to pay thousands for a steel framed touring bike or even more for a carbon fiber frame. Not sure what the durability of carbon fiber is like, but when it breaks the whole thing tends to unravel.

You could buy three or four aluminum framed bikes for the price of one steel framed bike, but most of that cost is in the parts rather than the frame. Carbon fiber frames are absurdly expensive, but they are lightweight. Could probably get six or seven aluminum framed bikes for the cost of one carbon fiber frame.

When mine goes I'd probably just buy a new frame and move the parts over, though I haven't actually found a place to buy a barebones frame that doesn't want to charge double the cost of a complete preassembled bike with low or lower mid-range parts. Maybe just get a cheapo for $80 from Walmart, strip the parts off and move the parts from my bike over to the new frame.

Even just buying a super cheap bike with an aluminum frame and then buying higher quality derailleurs, brake levers, brakes, hubs and rims would run less than a preassembled steel framed touring bike. Maybe they make steel framed BMX bikes for cheaper, I couldn't tell ya.

P.S. By the by, everytime I tried to quote the last post the forum logged me out and said that I had to be logged in to quote posts

[oswaldkelso]

That made me LOL
Back to bikes. I have 7 motor bikes. Even my newest is an old design (2019 Royal Enfield GT 535) it's easy to work on because like my computers I want control. Most new bikes are slaveware on 2 wheels.

Aside from the Enfield I have a:

KZ 550 bobber 1980ish
Honda vf 500 1984
GPZ1000RX 1985
Over 40 years old in the UK is classed as a historic vehicle so no MOT test No road tax and cheap classic insurance
Moto Guzzi XPA 750 1995
Aprilia Pegaso 650 1998 (Rotax)
Ducati Multistrada 1000s 2006

The wife says "Why do you need 7 bikes" I say "they're all different. Why do you plant 30 different flowers in the garden". She also says "how can you look at that text on that black screen all day" I say "How can you moan about big corps all day forcing you to do this and that while running their software". Slowly but surely she's shifting her stance. libre office on her pc at work. Molly (signal fork) over whats crap. Using SMS, and posteo.de for email over gmail, and generally using the phone over closed source social media applications.

The penny's dropped and while she wont be running catwm as her main computer interface like me she's content using xfce on Slackware on my old P4. Dammit she can even log in and out of notionwm! She has f-droid on her phone and once she leaves work there will be no M$ Windows in her life. People have been conditioned by years of only knowing slaveware but if you help them understand how they're being manipulated the can and do change of their own volition.