[Discussion] Is system breaking updates common in Debian Stable?

[M22]

Forgive me if this sounds a bit rude or annoying, but I didn't expect a stable branch of well known rock-solid Debian to have hiccups during an update. Especially system-breaking problems. (The recent kernel panic with 6.1.0-18 and nvidia dkms, for example).

I came from Arch linux which have numerous amounts of system breakages or other annoyances whereby even after updating in the morning, I find more updates are available in the evening, and I was tired of fixing them all the time.

I was surprised to see Debian stable has this problem too, which I didn't expect, since I thought it has extensive testing before an update is released.

That said, Debian has come a long way, and Bookworm's opening up to "non-free" firmware in its default release package really makes transition to it easier and also makes it easier for newcomers to install and start using immediately without any adjustments. I always admired the stability before but last time the omission of non-free firmware and the workaround requires extra steps, or need to download the ISO with non-free firmware included, made installing a bit cumbersome. But now, the Bookworm release is very straight forward and its ease of installation is as easy as installing Linux Mint.

And I have changed my OS to Debian Bookworm in all of my desktops and laptops. It... just... works. I find it even better than Arch when it comes to gaming. Update process and installing apt packages are very fast!

And for the above kernel panic, our Debian support members are very helpful in pointing out the solution and quick to get the problem solved.

Coming back to the topic, is kernel panic problems like this after an update is common in Debian Stable?

And thank you for a very supportive, wonderful Debian forum community.

[appye]

Definitely not common. I used Arch and many other bleeding edge, source-based, and/or rolling distros in the past, and finally settled on Debian back when Stretch was the stable branch for the same reasons you did. At nearly 50, I have become a bit of a curmudgeon when it comes to fixing breakage all the time and just wanted something that worked.

This is the first time I have run into this level of breakage with stable Debian in the six or so years I have been using it as essentially my only Linux distro. I guess we can't be perfect. The sad thing is, I am thinking we will have to wait for the next point release before nvidia people can get back to business as usual for apt update && apt full-upgrade ... I guess the temporary enablement of proposed-updates, vs backported kernel or nouveau (blech!) is the way to go for now. I would make sure to remove or comment out any proposed lines after you have fixed your system though, that way you can continue to update and the stable distro will eventually "catch up" once the next point release comes out.

[bbbhltz]

(this thread (see here) could give further insight.)

Coming back to the topic, is kernel panic problems like this after an update is common in Debian Stable?

I say "no".

While I haven't been on this forum for a long time, I have been using Debian through the years. Sometimes even my beginner mistakes couldn't break Debian. Stable is stable on my end. But (this is a big but) I don't have newer hardware or Nvidia or complicated bespoke setups.

[Dai_trying]

Just to add my 2 cents to this I have also used Debian for many years and if you follow the stable path you will (IMO) have very few incidents that require the sort of intervention as this particular update has needed. Just because it happens on a rare occasion does not make it an end of world scenario as some might seem to be implying.

I would also like to personally thank the Debian team (in it's entirety, and yes that means the forum members/admins too!) for the work that is done to ensure we have and maintain a reliable OS. and out of curiosity I wonder how long it would have taken M$ (and others) to sort a similar issue out with their billions of (insert currency here) available, when you compare that to the Debian budget we get a vastly more efficient eco-OS.

[end rant]

[Uptorn]

I have unusual hardware.

Debian updates have broken my unusual configuration before.

Yes, it was a pain.

No, I did not come down on any of the Debian folks and fully understood that it is a circumstance of my decision to run unusual hardware with an unusual configuration.

Yes, I expect it to happen again at some point and that is why I;

• Avoid automatic upgrades and instead opt to install all updates manually
• After reviewing the announcements at Debian Security Advisories, and personally checking the source code for packages which have previously experienced breakage.
• Employ a robust backup routine and have secondary and tertiary computers ready to temporarily serve as my primary device.

But if you have a common computer and configure it according to the cautions and advisories found throughout Debian's extensive documentation, then Debian basically never breaks.

[Diesel330]

Not common at all, I use Debian 11 since it came out, never broke on me, never did a hard reset. I think it is just a bad occasion and it will pass

[Borg]

The sad thing is, I am thinking we will have to wait for the next point release before nvidia people can get back to business as usual for apt update && apt full-upgrade ...

No, the problem is fixed as of today in the normal repository. No work is required from the user other than updating normally.

Running 6.1.0-18-amd64 with proprietary NVidia drivers here.

I guess the temporary enablement of proposed-updates, vs backported kernel or nouveau (blech!) is the way to go for now.

No! Definitely not.
The temporary workaround was to just use the older kernel via grub menu until the problem is fixed in the repository. And this happened today. So you needed to wait for an update. No further action was required by the user.

[Borg]

Coming back to the topic, is kernel panic problems like this after an update is common in Debian Stable?

No, I have been using Debian since Debian 9 (Stretch, release date was June 17, 2017)

In the last 7 years I have only had 3 serious problems with Debian.
1. The current problem with the new kernel and the Nvidia drivers. Which has been solved as of today. Thus it required a week.
2. Then a serious error in December 2023 with the ext4 file system in one of the previous kernels which could lead to data loss under certain circumstances. This problem could be fixed within a week.
Read here for more informations:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... ug=1057843
3. And several security holes in the Firefox browser in November 2022, which could not be updated to a newer ESR version, because the new version required a new version of the rust compiler. During this time, people surfed with an unprotected browser. Unfortunately, it took several weeks until the problem was resolved. Too long for my taste. However, this should no longer happen in the future, as the Firefox browser has now received its own Rust compiler package and Chromium is updated more frequently, so that if the worst comes to the worst, you have now an alternative browser with Chromium available. Unfortunately, when the problem with Firefox existed, Chromium was hopelessly out of date.

These were the 3 serious problems with Debian in the last 7 years.

Then there are a few minor issues, such as versions of packages skipping an entire Debian major release before there is a new version of the package in the repository. And unfortunately it also takes too long for new software to be added to the package repository.

But compared to Ubuntu and Linux Mint, security holes are at least still fixed after the distribution is released. For Ubuntu and Linux Mint this only applies to their main repository, but often not to the others.

[appye]

Yep, and for those who didn't so happen to run an update during this time, they would never have even known about it. I never new about the ext4 thing until reading about it during this week's drama.

[M22]

Thank you all for the replies. I just started using Debian Stable for about a month now, and I noticed the kernel panic above, hence my question. And I too didn't expect this to happen in a Stable branch, that too in Debian.

I guess something went wrong somewhere or was overlooked before the update was released.

Anyway, now everything is working good, and I only temporarily enabled the proposed-updates repo until I was able to boot again, and remarked it out and using the normal update channel, and things went back to normal now.