[Discussion] What change, if implemented, would cause you to leave Debian?

[Uptorn]

Big or small, broad or niche, do you draw the line on a particular choice that future Debian might make? What change, if implemented, would induce you to move from Debian to some other distribution?

My feet are firmly planted here for the foreseeable future. This is a hypothetical question but if I must answer, I would hazard that a switch away from apt to something more Windows-y like snap/flatpak as the primary supported package management would probably drive me off to other lands.

[steve_v]

Forced adoption of systemd (now past tense, and I moved all my Debian systems to Devuan some time ago. I still consider that "close enough" to Debian though, since 90+% of packages are verbatim).
Removal of support for traditional daemons where systemd has similar functionality (e.g. logging, dns, dhcp etc.)
Forced adoption of other upcoming systemd/redhat-isms, such as full-screen QR code BSODs or removal of default TTYs in favour of "GUI is the primary interface".
Forced move to wayland (at least as long as it lacks feature parity, particularly network support).
Excessive pandering to GNOME, where it impacts use of other DEs, WMs, or the CLI.
Move to "immutable core" style distribution.
Forced adoption of snap / flatpak / appimage / static linking / other windows-esque commercial software friendly / "first party" packaging, or dilution of DFSG and/or maintainer oversight in general to cater to closed-source interests.

Any of those would be grounds to move away not just from Debian, but also any Debian derivatives... And possibly GNU/Linux in general, likely to FreeBSD.

TBF, all of the above can probably be summed under the general umbrella of "reducing user choice or removing the unix from my unix, to make it more appealing to corporations and ex-windows desktop users".
I've been using GNU/Linux for a long while now, and it's fine. It's never needed to copy Windows / MacOS / $[insert mobile os here] before, and it doesn't need to now.
The near limitless choice offered by the FOSS bazaar model is a strength, not a problem to be solved by some "One Linux" RedHat/IBM initiative.
The answer to commercial software not available in the bazaar isn't some fancy new package format or adding non-free to the installation media, it's stepping up and either switching to free software (and compatible hardware) alternatives or writing software and/or drivers where such doesn't already exist.

As long as Debian allows me the freedom to use my machines the way I want, with the software I want, without undue interference from proprietary software or corporate overlords, I'll be using some version or derivative of it. The moment that goes away, so do I.

[Dai_trying]

1) Forced snap/flatpaks
2) Abandoning the social contract

[CwF]

As hinted by others in the thread it is possible to go 'vertical'
All the code that has been released, has been released. They can't take it away.

When/if Debian does something critically stupid then I'll rely on me. When the time comes that I can't effectively browse the web for example, then I won't. For the most part, that truth is already here.

Over the last few years I've noticed that what used to a busy deal in person is now quick and easy, because everyone else is using the 'APP'

The grand moral of the story is: Avoid the herd, find your own pasture.

I started on computers when it was a vague thing. What can we do with it? Whatever you tell it! That is lost with most people. It was par for the course for the user to be the programmer. Now, after full commiditization of the gadget and locked up preprogrammed consumption everyone has forgotten that truth. The renaissance man is dying. No longer is 'creative' associated with raw fabrication but now simply frivolous 'expression'.

[Bulkley]

Forced adoption of systemd . . .

Agreed.

As long as Debian allows me the freedom to use my machines the way I want, with the software I want, without undue interference from proprietary software or corporate overlords, I'll be using some version or derivative of it. The moment that goes away, so do I.

Yup. I'm running a minimal system; don't even have a display manager; no Network Manager, etc. I have looked at the latest versions of Debian and am not impressed. I still use Debian 10. I think the best of Debian was Wheezy; it's been creeping corporatism ever since.

The problem with leaving is that I'm not impressed with the alternatives.

[CwF]

The problem with leaving is that I'm not impressed with the alternatives.

This is key. I don't think there are good alternatives either. Unless you want to spend more time working on the tool rather than using it. Though I do suggest being willing to build the tool, there is a need for balance.

For the record, I'm liking systemd. It's definitely not done yet, but much further along than wayland.

Maybe Xfce 4.20 on trixie on wayland will work out, we'll see.

[Diesel330]

From what I have seen from other distributions, if I ever stop using Debian I will turn back to Windows. I'm here for the principles of the community, the social contract that is very much in line with my values. If it's not Debian then it is Windows. But for this to happen my computer has to be unusable, not be able to find hardware for Debian to work. I'm settled on Debian, I have used to it and I can forgive many hassles if it is for having a FREE OS with values

[Fossy]

Edit :
Since Buster, the Debian Developers have made sure that I have a Live Cinnamon ISO available with which I have been able to successfully complete all my installations so far (fingers crossed) without any problems.
I can only hope that the path the developers have taken is one of no way of return.
I would like to refer to:
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/cu ... so-hybrid/

[Marie SWE]

Thread question

What change, if implemented, would cause you to leave Debian?
Big or small, broad or niche, do you draw the line on a particular choice that future Debian might make? What change, if implemented, would induce you to move from Debian to some other distribution?

I started with Mint18.3 then i switched to LMDE3 and after that to Debian.. so i went back to root so to speak.

If i ever going to continue using Linux as desktop/laptop OS i will stay on Debian as there is no use to switch to a fork of debian as i can install all packages that is on other debian based distros on my installed Debian version.. so why install Mint if i can install software that is on Mint to my Debian install.

The question above ((would cause you to leave Debian?))
for me it is sadly the way around as i have to high demands and the linux kernel have problems for desktop usage when often using more memory then installed RAM.. memory overcommitment or what its called.
Linux kernel is more tuned for server usage and when using more memory then installed RAM it start to swap.. and that is good as windows and Mac does that too.
Sadly Linux kernel has some issues that is known as swapdeath since the 90's and its still a problem 25+ years later(i read about the bug/feature 1997 or 98). This cause they system to freeze up from everything from 1second to hours.. this is also called disk I/O trashing.. With modern SSD's and Nvme you dont get the system to freeze up for hours anymore.. but it can still freeze for 10 or 60seconds.
Linux kernel is really bad on memory swap.. This can also be noticed when setting the system to hibernation when you have 95+% memory usage and a few GB of memory swap in use.. With an HDD it can take the system 10 to 40minutes to write RAM to disk before the system shuts down.. with an SSD around 1:15/1:30minutes

as a comparison.. My computer i have to my TV as multimedia device is running windows 7 on a intel dual core E8200 2.66 GHz with 8GB ram and Sata2 HDD 5400RPM.. It takes that computer 55seconds from i push the button to write ram to disk(hibernate) to the power led is off.
My Laptop Debian12 Xfce is a Intel i3-2350M 12GB ram and an sata3 SSD.. This one is 15second slower then my win7 computer even it has a drive more then three time the write speed.
My desktop is a intel i3 8gen with 32GB ram and sata3 SSD.. this one is even a few seconds slower then my laptop.. as it has more ram to save to disk.

Then it is the uptime problem.. all my linux machines start to get small issues as zombie processes or things stops working after 100/150 days of uptime(i only poser down with hibernation to continue working the day after or when i get home again)

Then we have the known linux kernel laptop battery time thingi.

So the question above ((would cause you to leave Debian?)) i will change that to ((would cause you to stay on Debian?))
If the deban team manage to crack the kernel problem being optimized for server usage to become optimized for desktop/laptop usage i would stay on Debian as i do like Linux and i do like Debian as distro..
I am not only a home user i use my computers as a work tool and my needs seems to be a bit to high to stay on Linux as main/daily system.

I will still run Debian on my old hardware that can't handle running win-server2022.. But i will sadly go back to windows for time being as i need a system that can handle my usage... If Linux kernel becomes better in the future i might go back to linux as main/daily system.

.

I still say keep up the good work Debian Team. Debian is really promising and becomes better for every generation.. I started with Debian9 and my last one is now Debian12.
But please do nag on the kernel developers to fix the darn disk I/O trashing bug (swapdeath), as that one has been well over-cooked for soon to be 30years now.

Edit..
Just in case someone react on my choice of win-server2022.. that is as windows LTSC can't be bought by normal people.. they only sell LTSC licenses to businesses and they are sick expensive.. But if you take win-server2022 and tweak it back for desktop usage, then it becomes windows LTSC..
win10/11 home/pro (rolling editions) is crap and should not be used in work environment as you need a stable system that dont change after an update.... and that is why i like Debian.. it is LTS and do not change the system after an update.
End Edit..

[CwF]

You'll eventually figure it out.

[juribel]

Hello from Germany, I'm new to this forum.

Having used Linux (Netbook Remix and Ubuntu) for nearly 17 years now, the first time I ran away screaming when Ubuntu replaced Gnome2 with Gnome3, which made it completely unusable for me, and I changed my OS to Xubuntu. Since then, I am a convinced user of Xfce.
The second time I ran away was being urged by Ubuntu to use snap, so I came to Debian 12 with Xfce last summer. I am very happy with it.
So, the essentials for me are:

Not being urged to Snap or Flatpak or whatever apart from deb
Not being urged to Wayland
X11 still available and maintained
Xfce still available and maintained

BTW, for me installing Debian 12 Xfce from the Live ISO turned out to be way easier than installing most of the other distributions I tried. Setting up the NVidia driver and migrating Firefox from the current version to LTS was a bit tricky but manageable.

[kc1di]

For me it would be if flatpacks or snaps were made mandatory! As ubuntu and Fedora seem to be heading that way.
I like the .deb packages.
I like Debians simple yet functional way.

[Hetzer]

What already drove me away from pure Debian is systemd. Or precisely fact that there's no real init freedom.
Sure, ye can install Debian with alternate init. But:
1) It's not as easy as just selecting init like in Devuan installer
2) There are still systemd services on installation, i.e. systemd-udevd
3) APT tries to pull up systemd again when i.e. installing X, lightdm or any DE.
4) Network interface naming remains weird
I currently run Devuan as it's Debian with init freedom. It's more like "alternative Debian" than a "Debian-derived distribution", hence I use it

However when it comes to GNU/Linux in general i agree with @Bulkley:

The problem with leaving is that I'm not impressed with the alternatives.

There's no real alternative to Debian. Everything else GNU/Linux world has is either corporate mainstream crap or distributions not really for production
So if Debian (so Devuan as well) gets unusable - It's end of GNU/Linux for me and I migrate to BSD
What changes could make me do such switch? Most of has been already mentioned:
a) Snap / Flatpak as primary package manager; Deprecation of APT (dpkg)
b) Forced switch to Wayland and removal of X11
c) Integration with GNOME (or KDE)
d) Going GUI-only (likely not going to happen with Debian, luckily)
Plus:
e) Integration with systemd so deep that maintaining init freedom won't be possible
f) Deprecation of GTK2/3

[Uptorn]

Hello from Germany, I'm new to this forum.

Having used Linux (Netbook Remix and Ubuntu) for nearly 17 years now, the first time I ran away screaming when Ubuntu replaced Gnome2 with Gnome3, which made it completely unusable for me, and I changed my OS to Xubuntu. Since then, I am a convinced user of Xfce.
The second time I ran away was being urged by Ubuntu to use snap, so I came to Debian 12 with Xfce last summer. I am very happy with it.
So, the essentials for me are:

Not being urged to Snap or Flatpak or whatever apart from deb
Not being urged to Wayland
X11 still available and maintained
Xfce still available and maintained

BTW, for me installing Debian 12 Xfce from the Live ISO turned out to be way easier than installing most of the other distributions I tried. Setting up the NVidia driver and migrating Firefox from the current version to LTS was a bit tricky but manageable.

Welcome to the forum.

One of the things I love about Debian is that it breaks things down into metapackages so that there is choice. That other distributions have entire rebranded forks (kubuntu, xubuntu, etc) IMO fails to communicate to new users the modularity made possible by free software.

[trinidad]

For the record, I'm liking systemd

Yep me too. Makes certain things quite handy.

Forced move to wayland (at least as long as it lacks feature parity, particularly network support)

Not quite sure what you mean about network support. Most issues can be solved with very short scripts for backends and frontends so nothing is particularly desperate. Obviously some package maintainers have yet to catch up.

No longer is 'creative' associated with raw fabrication but now simply frivolous 'expression'

The problem is no ones grows up any more. Personal creative expression has turned into a fetish and a toy. Media has turned many people into narcissistic performers. This is not to say their creative minds are worthless, but rather immaturely concerned with public expression of personna as if it is some kind of personal right of liberation. It is not.

Just in case someone react on my choice of win-server2022

You have my sympathy. Windows is so old and clunky and so poor at networking that many things are quite painful to sort. Almost every network I've had to maintain for Windows multi-workstation offices is propped up with Linux networking tools. It's lack of decent and not ridiculously verbose CLI intervention is painfully terrible.

The only thing that would send me away from Debian is if it became an immutable system. Like others here have noted I would then switch to BSD but with great regret, even actual mourning, and jump into a plethora of new headaches.

TC

[CwF]

Not quite sure what you mean about network support.

I think the reference is to 'ssh -X' forwarding and utilities like X2X. I read up on waylands progress every so often, but am in no hurry. I know all the holes aren't filled yet. I think some forwarding is working, but if it relies in some Xwayland stub as a crutch then it's half baked. If X2X devolves to X2VNC requiring a full fat vnc installation I will consider that sloppy seconds.

The only thing that would send me away from Debian is if it became an immutable system.

I think immutable is good, but the concern here is if the end user has full control over that base and it's not offered up as a flatpack like lowest common denominator take it like we give it. I do use layers that are functionally on immutable bases, but I create the base like I want, so not the same as some 'official standardized' base. I haven't looked into how these immutable bases are crafted in distros using them.

[pizza-rat]

1. Continued poor support for alternative inits, more FedHat/SyndromeD creep
2. Debian stable becoming less stable
3. Loss of support for X11

I'm currently weighing up trying Devuan or returning to Gentoo. Probably the latter, their new binary support sounds interesting and we've had a few cold days where I could've benefited from running a Gentoo full system upgrade to heat the house (it's also surprisingly the most stable distro I've run, once you get past the initial setup).

[Bulkley]

There's no real alternative to Debian.

There's no real alternative to APT. Debian is built around package management, including those massive repositories. Without APT Debian would be just another minor distro.

[Uptorn]

There's no real alternative to APT. Debian is built around package management, including those massive repositories. Without APT Debian would be just another minor distro.

The distinction between the package management software and the actual package library is important. Debian's repositories enjoy having numerous maintainers. It's not the package management software or which mirror it talks to, but having all that man power to maintain such an exhaustive repository of packages.

[Bulkley]

Debian's repositories enjoy having numerous maintainers. It's not the package management software or which mirror it talks to, but having all that man power to maintain such an exhaustive repository of packages.

Absolutely.