[Software] 20 years of linux - now I've been drawn back to windows

[urdrwho10]

How the heck has this happened? Just yesterday I was talking with my son and how it's been 20 years, maybe more since I first started using Linux. I recently has to install Turbo tax on my triple boot, HP all-in-one computer and I started playing around with the WIn 10. I started to realize that my fan was quieter and also the internet pages opened just as fast and my browsers opened maybe even faster. I've been running Debian and currently have 12 but I also have Mint Cinnamon but rarely use it.

Because it is a touch screen the drivers in Windows are the better choice. The fan issue could be an ACPI situation where again Windows is paired better for it. I like using Debian but I don't like hearing my fans roar more often in Debian. Because I always considered Linux to be the way, I can't believe I am here having to decide. I'm hoping someone can give me a clear but, bold, well reasoned answer.

Think I'll re-boot into Deb 12 and think about it.

[Linuxgaming1824]

windows 10 isn't bad, windows 11 is like 1984 and the matrix combined, except you're one of the people trapped in the matrix, and unwitting to the existence of the all encompassing techno-prison as opposed to neo: conscious to the existence of the matrix.

There's ideally a mutual relationship between your user land operating system and the underlying hardwares operation system, but it's like a bad relationship where the husband and wife live together, but don't actually speak to one another.

You're gonna want to start from the ground up, and examine what options you have in your systems BIOS settings, that will allow to adjust low level details like fan speed. By default windows pushes your hardware more than debian, but with debian you have to take care to configure things, like in BIOS more so.

Generally the kernel+debian will respect your hardwares settings, that's how they're designed. whereas windows will attempt to take as much power as it can.

I tried going back to windows 11, multiple times, but the last time I tried I learned windows 11 had such a thing as illegal colors for it's themeing. And they were so limited, I finally cracked, and I've never gone back since.

somewhere along the order of precedence the configuration causing our problems exists...

hardware->bios settings->kernel->debian
debian->kernel->bios settings->hardware

[Bloom]

Don't forget you need good internet security software for Windows or bad things will happen. It will not be free: with free security, you get what you pay for. When using Linux, you need far less security and whatever is needed, it's free.

[Linuxgaming1824]

the best firewall(and software) I ever had for windows was free actually..

to urdrwho10's point programs and operating systems are actually designed in such a way to appear faster and even quieter literally initially
to manipulate people just like you : )

that's how windows chooses to seduce you, and everyone else too

[Augie77]

No doubt, the number one reason Linux users go back to Windows is due to quieter fans. <cough, cough> hmmmm......

You might want to ask why those fans are quieter? Do you have something set incorrectly on the motherboard? How old is the motherboard, does it support different fan states? Is Windows using the same potential of your hardware as Linux is?

[None1975]

It is very bad when people become slaves of big (and small) companies....

[urdrwho10]

Back on Deb right now.

No - no and no. This HP is quite old and BIOS has no extra fan settings for different states. I think in the past I've installed (or tried) some Linux apps for fan control but none worked. But yeah, I don't like the extra work load on the poor old fan. Replacement wouldn't be difficult but why?

No doubt, the number one reason Linux users go back to Windows is due to quieter fans. <cough, cough> hmmmm......

You might want to ask why those fans are quieter? Do you have something set incorrectly on the motherboard? How old is the motherboard, does it support different fan states? Is Windows using the same potential of your hardware as Linux is?

[Augie77]

My guess is that Win 10 is taking a stab at temps and fan states. I have a very old HP Pavilion with AMD cpu and Win XP. BIOS won't support USB boot so I never did try Linux on it. I probably could boot/install from the DVD drive but I use this laptop only to prove my ISP connection is at fault when the net drops, and not my main box. With no antivirus or firewall on the XP laptop it works great at verifying the incoming signal from the ISP. The fans on that Pavilion will ramp up pretty darn loud when running video / music files, and the such. The Pavilion also weighs something like 10 pounds with the power brick.

[urdrwho10]

I run HW and CPUZ on that windows and I don't think it is manipulation. That's like saying XYZ car is manipulating that suspension to make the road feel smoother. So what? If it seems smoother, if it seems faster, etc. that is how we humans see things. I'm guessing Windows might be caching a lot more web pages and doesn't clean up those things and it makes things seem faster? That's not a bad thing is it?

Today my arthritic fingers are killing me, ouch ...ouch...couch. I'm back on Deb and I miss the touch screen.

I knew I would see a reasonable explanation would be protection. Well I use no firewalls in Linux. I do consider Linux to be a safer environment. I've used computers since the days of my Commadore 64 and used them for my business. Because of proprietary software that I needed for work I used Windows on work computers and I have never, ever, never picked up a bad virus. Sometimes I think it is where you lurk, if your lurk in bad places, if you download stuff you shouldn't download, you'll find trouble. There was a guy at Starbucks that always, always, always complained about getting malware, viruses, etc. He knew little about computing and he visited a lot of pornographic sites. During the pandemic and cancer event I stopped going to Starbucks. Three years later I saw some of the people who went to bucs and asked about so and so. They said, oh you din't know? He was arrested for child pornography. So that snake was lurking in bad places. Always thought he was odd.

Back on Deb and I think my little travel into Win land is over....I think. Maybe I should delete this post, I was in a mood this morning where I was thinking....must I make a choice?

the best firewall(and software) I ever had for windows was free actually..

to urdrwho10's point programs and operating systems are actually designed in such a way to appear faster and even quieter literally initially
to manipulate people just like you : )

that's how windows chooses to seduce you, and everyone else too

[urdrwho10]

I also have an old Pavillion laptop sitting in the pile. That thing is heavy! But I remember dropping it, a very hard drop and the drop didn't faze it. Could it be that it was 25 years ago since buying that laptop? It hasn't been started in a long time and I think it is a Pavillion 5000 ZV or something close?

I can't remmber what flavor of Linux ran on the HP laptop but I do remember using KDE on it but it suffered. I think, if I remember, I did finally get it to play well with KDE. Sorry but I just am not a fan of anything outside of KDE/Mate or Cinnamon.

My guess is that Win 10 is taking a stab at temps and fan states. I have a very old HP Pavilion with AMD cpu and Win XP. BIOS won't support USB boot so I never did try Linux on it. I probably could boot/install from the DVD drive but I use this laptop only to prove my ISP connection is at fault when the net drops, and not my main box. With no antivirus or firewall on the XP laptop it works great at verifying the incoming signal from the ISP. The fans on that Pavilion will ramp up pretty darn loud when running video / music files, and the such. The Pavilion also weighs something like 10 pounds with the power brick.

[Augie77]

I also have an old Pavillion laptop sitting in the pile. That thing is heavy! But I remember dropping it, a very hard drop and the drop didn't faze it. Could it be that it was 25 years ago since buying that laptop? It hasn't been started in a long time and I think it is a Pavillion 5000 ZV or something close?

I can't remmber what flavor of Linux ran on the HP laptop but I do remember using KDE on it but it suffered. I think, if I remember, I did finally get it to play well with KDE. Sorry but I just am not a fan of anything outside of KDE/Mate or Cinnamon.

My guess is that Win 10 is taking a stab at temps and fan states. I have a very old HP Pavilion with AMD cpu and Win XP. BIOS won't support USB boot so I never did try Linux on it. I probably could boot/install from the DVD drive but I use this laptop only to prove my ISP connection is at fault when the net drops, and not my main box. With no antivirus or firewall on the XP laptop it works great at verifying the incoming signal from the ISP. The fans on that Pavilion will ramp up pretty darn loud when running video / music files, and the such. The Pavilion also weighs something like 10 pounds with the power brick.

I just looked at mine, nearly got a hernia lifting it out of the bottom cabinet. It is a ZV6000 and I think I got it around 2000 perhaps. Yep, it is sturdy and has survived a few drops.

Don't delete any of your posts, its all good. I woke up this morning unhappy that I had not managed to break anything in Bookworm this weekend, so now, I am installing dependencies for XFCE to do some updates. That will fix me real good.

[urdrwho10]

Sometimes entering a discussion in Linux is like entering a discussion on religion, both sometimes have a function of faith.

Those old Pavillions were boat anchors. If not for the dying back light I could still use mine. Opening up that case is another matter indeed, kind of like trying to break into a locked palace.

I'm one of those people who are not a devotee to any OS. I crashed XP one time and the reason for that was an install of Lubuntu not doing what I told it to do and me not watching. That was a long time ago but Lubuntu decided it was supposed to be the only OS. On the other hand, because of the ability to try different Linux and different distros I have on too many occasions messed up and needed to do a fresh install. The good of my Linux installs is the separate home partition I use makes a fresh install easy. Could I do that with windows? If so, I'm not sure how to do it.

My son is an IT guy and we've always agreed that Linux has brought many old weak computers life again.

I also have an old Pavillion laptop sitting in the pile. That thing is heavy! But I remember dropping it, a very hard drop and the drop didn't faze it. Could it be that it was 25 years ago since buying that laptop? It hasn't been started in a long time and I think it is a Pavillion 5000 ZV or something close?

I can't remmber what flavor of Linux ran on the HP laptop but I do remember using KDE on it but it suffered. I think, if I remember, I did finally get it to play well with KDE. Sorry but I just am not a fan of anything outside of KDE/Mate or Cinnamon.

My guess is that Win 10 is taking a stab at temps and fan states. I have a very old HP Pavilion with AMD cpu and Win XP. BIOS won't support USB boot so I never did try Linux on it. I probably could boot/install from the DVD drive but I use this laptop only to prove my ISP connection is at fault when the net drops, and not my main box. With no antivirus or firewall on the XP laptop it works great at verifying the incoming signal from the ISP. The fans on that Pavilion will ramp up pretty darn loud when running video / music files, and the such. The Pavilion also weighs something like 10 pounds with the power brick.

I just looked at mine, nearly got a hernia lifting it out of the bottom cabinet. It is a ZV6000 and I think I got it around 2000 perhaps. Yep, it is sturdy and has survived a few drops.

Don't delete any of your posts, its all good. I woke up this morning unhappy that I had not managed to break anything in Bookworm this weekend, so now, I am installing dependencies for XFCE to do some updates. That will fix me real good.

[Uptorn]

I'll leave a more thought out reply after I've had time to read the whole thread. But for now, this sounds like a great example as to why one should make hardware purchasing decisions around the target software environment they wish to use.

[Uptorn]

Watching activity in top to see what processes float to the top whenever the fan can be heard under stress might be revealing. Or is it at high RPM constantly?

I'm not sure if it is also true for x86, but the Firefox build packaged by Debian defaults to using software rendering unless you go in and manually specify it to launch under Wayland, using GPU acceleration and WebRender.

Code: Select all

env MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1

And then in about:config

Code: Select all

gfx.webrender.all to true
media.ffmpeg.vaapi.enabled to true

After relaunching Firefox, about:support should report
Compositing WebRender
Window Protocol wayland

Just a huge assumption on my part. Again, it would be very revealing to know what processes are eating up your CPU.

And if the above is universally true about firefox-esr as packaged in Debian, then it is something which I suspect is harming the perception of Linux and free software. People try it, not having that background understanding, and dismiss Firefox (and possibly Linux) as "slow".

[urdrwho10]

I'll keep an eye on when it happens but it seems to be random.

Watching activity in top to see what processes float to the top whenever the fan can be heard under stress might be revealing. Or is it at high RPM constantly?

I'm not sure if it is also true for x86, but the Firefox build packaged by Debian defaults to using software rendering unless you go in and manually specify it to launch under Wayland, using GPU acceleration and WebRender.

Code: Select all

env MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1

And then in about:config

Code: Select all

gfx.webrender.all to true
media.ffmpeg.vaapi.enabled to true

After relaunching Firefox, about:support should report
Compositing WebRender
Window Protocol wayland

Just a huge assumption on my part. Again, it would be very revealing to know what processes are eating up your CPU.

And if the above is universally true about firefox-esr as packaged in Debian, then it is something which I suspect is harming the perception of Linux and free software. People try it, not having that background understanding, and dismiss Firefox (and possibly Linux) as "slow".

[Diesel330]

The built-in (opt-out maybe) keylogger on Windows 10 and 11 is enough for me to never consider to return to that OS ever again

[urdrwho10]

Yeah that is the first thing I'd ever do is turn that off on Windows but I've seen comparable requests in my days on Linux apps. Paraphrase, "Please help us gather information" Such as Firefox asking my help. "Firefox: includes identifiers in telemetry transmissions that can link these things over time (telemetry is on by default but can be disabled). Firefox also opens a persistent websocket for push notifications. The websocket, the researcher said, is linked to a unique identifier and can potentially be used for tracking that’s not easily disabled."

I even think I've seen requests from different Linux OS's to help them out by doing such and such (giving info our). Can always opt-out. I had a client that refused to have a smart TV nor a cell phone because of his fear of tracking. I'm watching a TV series A Person of Interest and it is about a computer that keeps track on all of us.

Once they have your data, they have your data. Firefox response is ---

"Firefox does collect some technical data about how users interact with our product, but that does not include the user's browsing history. This data is transmitted along with a unique randomly generated identifier. IP addresses are retained for a short period for security and fraud detection and then deleted. They are stripped from telemetry data and are not used to correlate user activity across browsing sessions.

As the study itself points out, “transmission of user data to backend servers is not intrinsically a privacy intrusion.” By limiting collection and retention of data and safeguarding the data users do share with us through encryption and anonymization, Firefox works to protect people’s privacy and provide a secure browsing experience. Clear and publicly available practices and processes reinforce our commitment to putting users’ needs first."

The built-in (opt-out maybe) keylogger on Windows 10 and 11 is enough for me to never consider to return to that OS ever again

[Uptorn]

Firefox is kind of unique among copyleft programs in that it behaves like a proprietary program, needing to be tamed and neutered before it can safely be launched.

Usually the tracking considerations that need to be dealt with in libre software are simple version checks reaching out to a remote server. With no other program have I had to go through and disable an entire telemetry engine and apply a privacy enforcing configuration template, like with Firefox.

And unfortunately Firefox is the best we have that isn't some fork.

[Augie77]

@urdrwho10
@Uptorn

Interesting discussion about Firefox and telemetry, particularly as Debian Bookworm has Firefox ESR. I took a look in about:config at the telemetry entries and was surprised to see how many telemetry entries there are. Any suggestions on what to disable in about:config to reduce this 'talking back' to FF and others?

[sunrat]

This is a pretty good privacy guide - Firefox Privacy – The Complete How-To Guide for 2024
Be careful though, and implement changes one at a time. I found a couple broke functionality I use on another forum.

If you want to go really hardcore with privacy, look at Arkenfox - https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js With it you can maximise security, and break lots of functions while doing it.